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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

That marriage can only be between a man and a woman.

187 replies

OneHumanFamily · 27/01/2017 20:11

The House Of Bishops Report proposes no change to ecclesiastical law or to the Church of England’s existing doctrinal position on marriage and sexual relationships. The Report also says that the Church needs to repent for homophobic attitudes. Anglicanism has always been a contested faith: Will homosexuality eventually be accepted?

www.churchofengland.org/media/3863472/gs-2055-marriage-and-same-sex-relationships-after-the-shared-conversations-report-from-the-house-of-bishops.pdf

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scottishdiem · 30/01/2017 10:44

I think it will change eventually but only as its gets to grip with societal changes.

Christianity today is different from that of 250, 500, 1000, 1500 years ago. Why does it change. Because humanity changes. Christianity is based on a book and the interpretation of that book changes. Theology changes. Ideas change. All because humanity changes. Its why I dont believe. If religions were the last thing in how to live, love and get the afterlife then there wouldnt need to be theology and multiple denominations within different faiths (never mind the actual number of faiths). All the changes have happened after people have become more educated, more questioning and more equal in society. These are human driven traits and religions respond not lead.

Those of us who do not believe cannot force changes on religions. They have to change themselves.

Mindtrope · 30/01/2017 10:52

You seem to forget that the bible is clear: the wages of sin is death.

But that's rubbish.

All living things have a finite life. Are you suggesting a pigeon dies because it has been sinful?

HelenaGWells · 30/01/2017 10:57

No more that adultery or fornication can. No more than lying, stealing, or hating can. Who of us hasn't committed at least one of those? Scriptural teachings instruct loving each other as a primary command, and so those who practice any of the above mentioned activities should still be loved. Because that's how Christ loves us (warts and all).

This is spot on what I believe. God gave us guidelines to live by but we all fall short. I hate when people pick and choose what to live by.

There is nothing in the 10 commandments about gay marriage or homosexuality or women in the church for that matter. They do however teach us to love and respect each other.

Jesus talks only of love. He came to everyone. He helped sinners and prostitutes and shock horror homosexuals.

I believe God made me. I believe God makes everyone. I believe God loves everyone. Therefore I believe God made and loves Gay people in the same way he loves people of all colours and creeds and levels of ability.

Mindtrope · 30/01/2017 11:00

If god loves us all unconditionally why does he make it a prerequisite to believe in him and accept jesus as saviour before we can enter his kingdom?

Why does he not just accept everyone?

akkakk · 30/01/2017 11:15

We live in a world where the word sin has lots of connotations and has become a pejorative word where society builds a scale of sins and some are acceptable and others not... we see that most clearly in our justice system where transgressions against society are on a sliding scale...

However, the concept of sin is a simple one - it is about doing what 'I' want, not what God wants (a common reminder is that SIN has 'I' in the middle) - so with any debate like this, it is important to ask several questions:

  • What does God want?
  • What do I want - does that include pleasing God?
  • Do I even believe in God?

If someone has no belief in God, then the concept of sin is an irrelevance - all that stands between that belief and anarchy is a common human or humanist code of what is right - and this is something which changes over time - so on that basis, how society determines right or wrong is the correct basis for deciding what you can / can't do - and society has become more liberal, so more is acceptable...

Society is now at the stage where as long as a vocal minority want to do something then it becomes an 'ism' and you are not allowed to disagree with them - there is a slippery slope there if society is not careful, because at a philosophical level it allows virtually anything - and then we are back to anarchy... However the 'soft line' in the sand seems to currently be that:

  • if a vocal minority group accepts it
  • and it doesn't affect others
then it should be allowed - whatever it might be...

so society no longer has a basis of a constant moral code / ethic - it is fluctuating and developing, and in some places that might be good - and in others perhaps not - each person's perspective will be different...

However...

If you do believe in God then there is something else to consider - that God has a framework which is how He would prefer you to live - a framework demonstrated by Jesus Christ in how he lived as both man and Son of God. That means that there is a constant which has been there for over 2,000 years and which is unchanging, and clearly explained.

God's desire is simple, for us to build an eternal relationship with Him - and in doing that to seek what He wants of us day to day...

In that framework it is very clear, marriage is a God-ordained institution between a man and a woman, there is no space for an alternative view.

So on that basis there is a choice (and God gives all of us choice every day) - a choice to orientate your focus towards God and look to do what is pleasing to God, or a choice to place that focus on ourselves - the 'I' in SIN - it is a choice we all make every day, and a choice we make 100s of times a day - and a choice which no doubt most of us get wrong on many many occasions!

So the statement from the House of Bishops is simply an observation on God's stated way of living - that is not condemnatory of those who choose otherwise, it is simply to say that if your decision in life is to live focused on God, then that is not compatible with the concept of marriage being anything other than between a man and a woman. But as much as God allows people to have a choice, so as Christians we must allow others to have a choice - and it is as valid for someone to choose differently as to choose the same - that is freedom of choice, and as Christians we should respect that ability to make that choice...

However...

  • that does not mean that the Church should change what it is to include those choices - at the very core of Christianity is the Bible and its teachings and it would be totally inappropriate to change those teachings
  • if someone wishes to come to God and follow Christ then the core of that is choosing God's way, not their own and that means that marriage in those circumstances could not be same sex. Yes they might have homosexual inclinations, but the choice there is abstinence, not changing the definition of Christianity / the teachings of the Bible. You don't come to God on your own terms, you do so on His terms and they are very clear... If someone doesn't like that then they have a choice to do their own thing - that is a valid choice, as Christians we would believe that the Bible teaches that can have eternal consequences - but if someone is a non-Christian and doesn't believe in life after death then those consequences are really rather irrelevant!
  • why should someone have the right to tell me / other Christians that we have to change the Bible to fit their desired way of life? If it were any other religion it would be considered religious persecution / racist, but because the CofE is seen as a white male establishment organisation it is okay... really?!

The issue we have here is that some people want everything (back to the I at the center). They want to 'be Christians' / have eternal life / be in Heaven / do it all on their terms - they take societal processes and believe that God /the Bible should change to suit the way they now think - but they will have a shock coming - it is a non-discussion, quite simply it is black and white and non-moveable, God is eternal and his message of salvation isn't one for negotiation and compromise, so it is what it is... Ultimately you could pass as many laws as you want telling the CofE that it must say x or y or z, or do something not in accord with the Bible - it will make no difference, God is - eternal, unchanging, divine...

so anyone can have whatever marriage they want - God allows choice, but lets not pretend that it is necessarily God's way of living, it isn't, we don't have to like that, but it is not a human construct, it just is how God has presented His approach to life through the Bible - if you don't believe in that / accept God's existence then it is an irrelevant discussion - do what you want - however if you do accept God / Bible, then it is not up for negotiation...

And those who do not accept God's direction have no right to tell those who do to change the Bible.

Mindtrope · 30/01/2017 11:36

And those who do not accept God's direction have no right to tell those who do to change the Bible.

How arrogant- and naiive.

Christianity affects us all in this country whether we believe in god or not.

Our head of state is also head of the church. Unelected church members make laws in parliament. Non faith schools have a legal requirement to lead our children in worship.

FreshStartIn2017 · 30/01/2017 11:54

If god loves us all unconditionally why does he make it a prerequisite to believe in him and accept jesus as saviour before we can enter his kingdom?

Why does he not just accept everyone?

That's a really good question. The answer is that you're right, God loves everyone unconditionally. However, he is also a righteous and perfect God, and so there has to be justice for the sins committed by humankind. In the same way you would not expect to be burgled, raped, or killed by another human, and have them get away with it, God also does not let people get away with it. What he DOES do, is provide a way for EVERYONE to have their sin covered, for ever. In the OT God required the blood (substitute death) of an animal to atone for people's sins. But when Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, spilled his blood as full and final payment of all sins for all time, there was no need for any further sacrifices to be paid. It was a wonderful provision. But God requires people to choose where they place themselves. Do they align themselves with false gods or their own self-importance over Him, and in essence tell God "no thanks" and tell him where to stick it? Or do they trust he is who he says he is, and accept his free gift of forgiveness? God doesn't force anyone to choose him, but he does try to persuade them gently. One could say the fact you've read this thread is God reaching out to you.

FreshStartIn2017 · 30/01/2017 12:00

If you want to understand Christianity, begin and end with the wounds of Jesus. The wounds of Christ tell us what kind of God it is that we worship. The wounds which Jesus experienced in the garden and on the cross he has not lost. He carried those wounds into the grave and they came up with him from the grave; visible and tangible and eternal. Jesus still bears the scars of his suffering. He hasn’t forgotten what it is like to be one of us. He retains his divine human life for all eternity. That’s why the writer of Hebrews can say “We have in Jesus, a great high priest, who is touched with the feelings of our infirmities”. Right now, in heaven, the risen, ascended, glorified Jesus remembers us as the God-man. He feels for us as the God-man. He prays for us as the God-man.

Mindtrope · 30/01/2017 12:04

fresh- human sacrifice does not sit comfortably with me- if it floats your boat then party on.

You seem to assume that a belief in a christian god is an option for everyone.

But it's not. What about someone born as a Hindu in rural India- who perhaps has never heard of christianity, or indiginous tribes in the rainforest, or children who are too young to even understand the concept- these people have has no opportunity to be "redeemed". Hardly seems fair that they are excluded.

One could say the fact you've read this thread is God reaching out to you.

You make me laugh.

FreshStartIn2017 · 30/01/2017 12:12

You can be exposed to Christianity and the bible in India, Mindtrope. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_South_India

www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2015/09/18/3-surprising-places-christianity-is-exploding-in-the-world-today/

Remember that there have been several times the whole world has known God before turning away to other false religions. Firstly in the garden of Eden, and then after the flood.

FreshStartIn2017 · 30/01/2017 12:16

human sacrifice does not sit comfortably with me- if it floats your boat then party on

This is not human sacrifice. This is God, leaving his place throne in heaven, to be the sacrifice we need, for us. HE took OUR place. Better love has no man than this, that he lay down his own life for his friends (John 15:13).

Scaredycat3000 · 30/01/2017 12:16

As with all things religion based this is about power and money, this is political. Any theological debate is pointless, this isn't about interpreting the bible, it's damage limitation.
The CofE's UK congregation by their own reports literally dying faster than they can recruit. The UK collection plate is diminishing and the church are getting desperate to halt their decline. If it was up to CofE in the UK gay marriage would be approved, it is socially acceptable in our society, in fact it could help attendance, but it's not just up to the UK. When we invaded our colonies we took our religion with us, CofE, or the Anglican Church , has outposts and they get to vote on these issues. And in a significant number of those countries it can be very dangerous to be homosexual, if not illegal. And just like May is sucking up to Trump, Welby is sucking up to his counterparts in the hope of keeping their support. If homosexual marriage was approved it would be a huge threat to the survival Anglican church, it would splinter across the world, CofE would lose worldwide power and money. The CofE will never approve gay marriage so long as world power is more important to it than basic good morals. They get away with it because of the extreme privilege that the CofE get in this country, distraction of theology and the blind faith of it's followers.

alltouchedout · 30/01/2017 12:36

If you want to understand Christianity, begin and end with the wounds of Jesus. The wounds of Christ tell us what kind of God it is that we worship.

A god that is omnipotent, but not quite because apparently we have free will so can be punished for making choices that God does not like, and to make up for these choices that are entirely our own responsibility despite God being omnipotent, God visited Earth in human form as a person named Jesus, who was both a separate being who was actually human and a totally non separate being who was actually God, had some people make the choice to torture and kill (but not actually kill, because, not a man after all but God!) Jesus so people could be forgiven for the choices that God was annoyed that they had made even though free will can only ever be an illusion given that God is omnipotent.

Jesus still bears the scars of his suffering. He hasn’t forgotten what it is like to be one of us. He retains his divine human life for all eternity

Given that Jesus and God are apparently one, Jesus was never one of us. You cannot be at once human and divine. Jesus is either God, in which case he has no idea what it is like to be human and the suffering you talk of is an act of deliberate self harm, or not, in which case the whole thing is an elaborate fantasy.

If this all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God created all and loves all, why the need for sin and forgiveness and Jesus and sacrifice etc? If God is omnipotent, then all sin is God's and it's not the sinners who bear the blame and require forgiveness...

akkakk · 30/01/2017 13:21

Christianity affects us all in this country whether we believe in god or not.

Christianity the religion (man made) affects us all - yes, agreed.
Christianity the Faith (God made) is different

Our head of state is also head of the church. Unelected church members make laws in parliament. Non faith schools have a legal requirement to lead our children in worship.

None of those things are core to the Christian faith - I would have no issue in having a de-established church and removing the links between state and God... all of those things are red-herrings and not relevant to a discussion about the authenticity of the Bible.

For those who worry about the CofE declining - you might wish to read the statistics more carefully - our church certainly isn't, nor are many - what we are seeing is a re-balancing of where people go to church, and overall church attendance (across all denominations etc.) is on the increase and Christianity is on the increase substantially...

Scaredycat3000 · 30/01/2017 13:40

akkakk
For those who worry about the CofE declining - you might wish to read the statistics more carefully - our church certainly isn't, nor are many - what we are seeing is a re-balancing of where people go to church, and overall church attendance (across all denominations etc.) is on the increase and Christianity is on the increase substantially... Evidence of this within the CofE please?

Mindtrope · 30/01/2017 13:43

Christianity the religion (man made) affects us all - yes, agreed.
Christianity the Faith (God made) is different

Faith is also man made. Because god does not exist.

CardinalSin · 30/01/2017 14:22

"You can be exposed to Christianity and the bible in India"

Emphasis on the "can". You've obviously not been to India. Very many will not come across Christianity at all. If they do, it'll be in passing and well after they've been indoctrinated in whichever religion their village follows.

I guess they're all to be punished for not instantly recognising that Christianity is the "right" religion...

CardinalSin · 30/01/2017 14:23

"Remember that there have been several times the whole world has known God before turning away to other false religions. Firstly in the garden of Eden, and then after the flood."

Yes, those well known fictional events...

CardinalSin · 30/01/2017 14:25

"If someone has no belief in God, then the concept of sin is an irrelevance - all that stands between that belief and anarchy is a common human or humanist code of what is right - and this is something which changes over time - so on that basis, how society determines right or wrong is the correct basis for deciding what you can / can't do - and society has become more liberal, so more is acceptable..."

However, what religion accepts as right or wrong also changes. It's just usually several decades behind what society has already worked out.

farangatang · 30/01/2017 15:42

Lots of Anglican churches run 'Alpha Courses' where people with questions about and objections to Christianity are invited to discuss and investigate (alongside Christians who are grappling with similar concerns a lot of the time). There are also hundreds of books and resources for anyone genuinely looking to answer the difficult questions, but there are certainly some that continue throughout (even) a Christian's life. This is where faith in what is known about God (he is Good and just) has to come into play - that, and humility that there are some things our human minds will possibly never be able to comprehend.

It is not impossible to be brought up in one faith/religion or even to move from atheism and discover faith (and lots of people experience great difficulty in the reaction of their family and friends when they do - they obviously get to the point where they are so convinced of the truth they are willing to choose their faith):

www.amazon.com/Seeking-Allah-Finding-Jesus-Christianity/dp/0310527236?tag=mumsnetforum-21

www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/1414326270/ref=pd_cp_14_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=G09Y3R978XBBW1M7S9BD&tag=mumsnetforum-21 This is a book written by a former atheist (he worked as a lawyer) who was so fed up with Christianity's claim to be truth that he set out to disprove it.

There are lots of videos online about people giving their personal testimony about how they came to faith, e.g if you understand astrophysics/big bang theory (and a long attention span).

In the UK, unfortunately the Christian faith comes across as being a bit 'nice' and 'middle class' and most people's understanding is limited to the depth of knowing some bible stories taught at primary school or twee hymns sung in school assemblies (potentially relegating Christianity to the 'outdated' category - along with any of its currently unpopular opinions about the state of the world!). There are countless stories from people such as David Wilkerson (who worked with drug addicts and gangs in NYC - Nicky Cruz's book 'Run Baby Run' talks about how he moved from being a Puerton Rican immigrant and becoming a drug lord there) and Jackie Pullinger 'Chasing the Dragon' who worked in Hong Kong's underworld as a missionary) all pointing to the very real power of God in people's lives for positive change. Things the like of which are still happening in countries all over the world today.

Given that the initial question in this thread is about homosexuality, people may be interested to read the books by Sam Allberry ('Is God Anti-Gay? and 'Why Bother With Church?'). Sam is a homosexual Christian pastor who is exploring the issue from the point of view of someone most affected by it and attempting to understand and explain a biblical perspective.

Ultimately, I think the issue of gay marriage is (as with many other objections to the entire Christian faith ) a red herring. Far better to get a contextual understanding of the foundation of the faith. It is based on the claim of an historical figure, Jesus Christ, that he was the Son of God and the only way to heaven and reconciliation with God / eternal life. Evaluating the evidence for/against this idea is pretty essential because if it's false, Christians are utterly deluded, but if it's true then failure to accept it has dire consequences. And that's not even getting started on the spiritual dimension necessary to find faith, which for many people precedes the development of cognitive understanding (as for lots of the people described in Jackie Pullinger's book, for example).

A big issue seems to be the pressure on the Church to change it's stance based on the contemporary secular view on same sex relationships: I'd be interested to know why it matters to people without faith as to whether the Christian church agrees with them or not. To those with faith who feel that the current stance is not correct, for what reasons do you feel this way?

akkakk · 30/01/2017 15:56

For those who worry about the CofE declining - you might wish to read the statistics more carefully - our church certainly isn't, nor are many - what we are seeing is a re-balancing of where people go to church, and overall church attendance (across all denominations etc.) is on the increase and Christianity is on the increase substantially... Evidence of this within the CofE please?

Sorry - probably phrased that badly

  • overall church attendance in the UK is on the increase
  • overall Christianity in the UK is on the increase
  • church attendance in some parts of the CofE is on the increase
  • overall church in the CofE is on the decrease

however, CofE attendance on the decrease is not a direct statistical correlation with Christianity being on the decrease

  • a) because of the increase in other churches, esp. the house church movement - e.g. New Wine etc.
  • b) because a lot of that decrease in attendance is those who are not Christians who used to go because of social expectations, but no longer feel that social pressure, so don't go...

Far better for church attendance to be those who want to be there :)

for interest, I live in a rural area and the church I attend is growing considerably - so much so that other vicars come to see what is happening... we have people who are regular members coming from within a c. 280 square mile area to that church... - some no doubt driving past many failing / declining churches to get there...

at a simplistic level

  • churches where the focus is on God / prayer / the word of the Bible are growing (faith based churches)
  • churches which are based on ritual / anglicanism / etc. are declining (religion based churches)
Scaredycat3000 · 30/01/2017 16:42

But where are your sources, links, evidence akkakk ? Confused
Here's a start
CofE's own 2014 statisitics
CofE's own 2015 statisitcs
And an article where some Bishops are quoted on the future of CofE
The statistics even make headlines. www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/12/church-of-england-attendance-falls-below-million-first-time
Or a completely different source
Faith survey

far The reason I care is CofE is the my state religion, they get my taxes, they selectively "educate" a million school children, with our taxes, their Bishops make our laws unelected, they run government backed basic services for the vulnerable such as food banks. No other openly homophobic organisation would be allowed to do this.

ladyvimes · 30/01/2017 17:49

So it's better to be a nice person because then you'll go to heaven than just be a nice person because you just are? And society does have a moral code, which I would argue is much more sophisticated and evolved now than a few hundred years ago. It's always improving as people learn and discover more. It's naive to say otherwise.

Also an atheist has not chosen to 'reject God'. How can you reject something that isn't real?

ladyvimes · 30/01/2017 17:51

And what better lie could there possibly be to gain money and power than: believe this or be damned?!
A message of fear hiding behind a message of love.

FreshStartIn2017 · 30/01/2017 20:15

So it's better to be a nice person because then you'll go to heaven than just be a nice person because you just are?

No because being nice doesn't mean you go to heaven. The bible says it is not by our works (being nice). It is undeserved favour; a free gift, that, like any other gift, you choose to accept or reject.

The bible says that our best efforts don't cut it because no matter how good we are it's blemished by our not-so-good bits, and so is like dirty rags to a perfect and holy God. It doesn't mean we can be horrible to everyone, because if you're truly in a relationship with God you want to please him, which means you want to model the fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and faithfulness (Galatians 5:22).

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