Please explain something about Christianity

[GoodyGoodyGumdrops]

Before I start, I just want to be quite clear that I'm not trying to be contentious or antagonistic. I'm a person of a different faith, who accepts the plurality of faiths, and wants to live in peace and understanding with others.

My question is about Jesus's death atoning for your sins. Does he not atone for all sins past and future, so that others can believe in him and also receive this atonement? In which case, why do you need to behave ethically?

I asked you a question in response to your posts, 1DAD. I never said I wasn't guilty of going of topic myself, quite the opposite.

I was merely pointing out, that if you wanted more definitive answers to your off topic questions, than I had given, you would be better starting a new thread.

You said you felt my responses were 'lazy' - I actually felt this was a bit disrespectful since I had bothered to answer questions, off topic, totally ad hoc. They were honest, sincerely felt, answers, not lazy. Unresearched, unreferenced and unverified but then I am under no obligation to give any responses to justify my faith to you, never mind do all the leg work, all the research and present it to you in an easily digestible format.

1DAD

I posted this earlier, which I think goes some way into explaining my perspective on your belief, accepting atonement and heaven question.

Add message | Report | Message poster Rockpebblestone Mon 28-Nov-16 09:41:43
Out, I think some people who declare themselves Christians, seemingly without assimilating much of Christ's teachings and living their lives by them, might be in for a bit of a shock in coming face to face with God. Heaven would possibly not seem that heavenly without being able to be at one with God and agree with what He stands for.

If people have love, it is my Christian belief that this comes from God. As God is in Christ and Christ in God, anyone who loves has an aspect of Christ in them too. Depending on what culture they come from, they might not know about Christ or know Him by name. They might even (incorrectly and unfortunately) associate Christ with some past traumatic experience with a particular disfunctional church. However they both might possess enough Christlike qualities which would allow them to come face to face with God in heaven. I don't know for sure but I do believe there is hope for all.

I'm very interested how Christians justify the OT. How they square it with the notion of a loving God. It seems most don't seem to have thought about too much.

Why don't you start a thread on it, then, head?

Good idea pebble.

Rockpebblestone intresting stance. So heaven is there for you even if you know not of the god of the Bible? That at least sounds fairer. Not sure if you may be a bit of a radical as it doesn't maybe follow the the main stream christian doctrine. It seems the Evangelist need you to have a personal relationship with God. The catholics just need you to say sorry all the time and the church of England just like everyone to avoid the question of who goes to hell all together and just talk about how nice God is. At least that is my take bases on friends and family of these groups. Do you mind me asking if this belief that all can get to heaven without a personal relationship with God is based on scripture or just the way you see the world?

Jesus coming was a little pointless apart for a publicity stunt
As publicity stunts go, it was as my DC says, an epic fail. Jesus apparently defied death but instead of showing everyone he wasn't dead he disappeared so his magic trick couldn't be confirmed. David Blaine was a lot more convincing, he was buried for 7 days and did interviews after.

Would I want to go to heaven in a hypothetical world
Umm, Not sold on it, at least the Muslims get rivers of wine, what do Christians get? Bugger all as far as I can tell. Doesn't sound very appealing, what are the other choices on the menu?

What I am saying is that I read and understand narrative differently to scientific theory

What does that actually mean? If the creation myth in the bible is symbolic what do you believe actually happened?

The Bible correctly predicted the top 5 boys names of its generation, therefore god exists. That's a new one, so it must be true.

Rockpebblestone it looks like headinhands has already posed the OT question earlier this year: headinhands question about the Old Testamentt*

I have enjoyed reading this thread. Awake at this silly hour, it is good to read such a reasoned thread.

1DAD, you appear to belief my beliefs concerning heaven are not scriptural and preclude the importance of a personal relationship with God. This is not how I see them.

The importance of having hope is stressed throughout the Bible. Also God is the one qualified to judge, in terms of eternal salvation, not us. So part of my belief stems from this.

"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life." (Proverbs 13:12)

Also my belief that if there is love in people, they have an aspect of God and Christ in them is also scriptural.

"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us." (1 John 4:12)

What I also find interesting, in reading the NT, is how it is often the people who would be unexpected to have any faith, that Jesus recognises and commends as having faith. He is also very clear about stressing the importance of love and the futility of faith without love.

I don't, personally, know of a Christian doctrine which would deny these points.

ChristmasPeace, headinhands has posted extensively about her take on the OT over the years, usually mentions OT brutality on any thread discussing specific aspects of the Christian Faith. It does not surprise me, at all, that she started a thread devoted to the subject of OT brutality. Still the responses would appear somehow dissatisfactory, on some level, for her. However if you want to discuss a particular issue a thread devoted to doing just this is the place.

I've made a thread for debating some aspects of all organised religion. I'll be embarrassed if no one replies now : )

Still the responses would appear somehow dissatisfactory, on some level,

I won't apologise for banging on about it. It's not some small side issue when a God you want me to worship drowns babies.

Rockpebblestone The problem with the Bilble as Gods word is its very contradictory. Its either not a divine work and the product of humans who contradict each other or God has some sort of disorder. If we are going down the route of quoting Bible verse (in context to subject) what's your take on Mark 16:15-16 'And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned'? Or since we are quoting John how about John 3:3 'Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God'? Most theologians would say these are pretty clear messages insisting on belief and following of God in order to be Saved. Seems a bit unfair on them in other cultures that will never hear gods word? Of course you say 1 John 4:12 suggests that it is possible to be saved without knowledge of God. To me that sounds a pretty weak link. It is a bit contradictory you must admit? Therefore surely everyone who follows the bible as a guide must pick and chose the scripture they like and discard the rest.

My friend who I posed the Atheist murder question to is currently battling with the idea of Predestination. Depending on what bits of the bible you read it suggests that some people are born of God and are predestined to go to heaven and the rest are simply unlucky. My friend is not sure if he believes it yet but it is worrying him as the bible does seem to sell this idea and he is very big on following Gods word. This is a pretty shit message but was something pushed by the Calvinist Church (and others) and like many competing Christian doctrine has fairly sound foundations in scripture. But of course you can understand that in this day this is not a trendy view of scripture in regards to who goes to heaven so must churches tend to brush it under the carpet like so many other untrendy parts of scripture.

Since there are so many and contradictory accounts of how/who is saved in the Bible which one is the way?

How can we have any faith in the method to heaven we have chosen when the bible contradicts its self? Can we reply on the bible as the word of God and if so what does that say about God?

I don't know of any bit in the Bible that says we go to heaven simply because God sent Jesus as a blood sacrifice? The bible seems to say in majority and clearest of instances you either have to accept him in your heart as your saviour or you are very lucky and you are predestined as one of gods chosen people to go to heaven. So if that's the case what was the point in Jesus dying because evidently this has not saved us?

To be honest I think the quickest way to destroy your faith in Christianity would be to read the entire Bible.

1DAD, in answer to your question, regarding the Bible verses you quoted, they fit in with my perspective - I believe them.

The thing is if what you believe conflicts with what Christ taught and stood for, how could you be at one with God in heaven? There would be a divergence and only by being able to accept where you are wrong and the atonement is there reconciliation to God.

My hope, regarding people who are not bought up in a Christian culture, is that people might still be able to appreciate and accept these Christian concepts on some deeper level, within themselves, without being formally taught them or having the same religious language as someone who was raised within a Christian culture. They still might be 'born again', in terms of being able to reject their hubris and recognise what is good. They might believe in the sense they believe in what Jesus stood for, even thought they might not know Him by name.

Of course Christianity provides a much more tangible framework with which to accept Christ, hence the importance of spreading His message. However, I still can possess hope, regarding the Salvation of people, raised in non Christian cultures, whilst believing the Bible, for the reasons I posted above.

1DAD I have already posted regarding my perspective on how Jesus' blood sacrifice works as an atonement (see from page 1 of this thread).

Rockpebblestone I have no problem with your view as it is obviously your personal believe and your interpretation. But it does seem at odd with a lot of main stream Christian doctrine. Also if the Bible is God's word how can you go to heaven without accepting him as your saviour? Personally the bible sounds pretty clear on that point unless you chose to ignor it. Seems to be a bit of a fundamental point. Of course there is one exception in the Bible as the Jews are gods chosen and will be saved dispite their rebellion against gods word. Always seems a little unfair in IMO.

1DAD I think there might be a possibility of accepting Christ as your saviour, on a deeper level, by accepting and agreeing with the very essence of Christ, the quality of who and what He is and stands for, without being raised within a Christian culture, or necessarily knowing His name.

And I have spoken to other people who believe as I do, there are examples of this kind of interpretation on here from various doctrinal traditions, from Catholics and more Evangelistic traditions, for example. My beliefs are certainly not unprecedented.

without being raised within a Christian culture,

What if you're raised in a Christian culture. Or even a Christian family. And yet don't feel there is reason to believe. But you're just as good a person as your Christian sister or father etc. Would God be cool with that?

head, I think it depends what exactly you are rejecting. God or an incorrect perception of Him. If you are actually rejecting God/Christ and all that He is and stands for, as I have said before, I don't see how anyone, from this position, could be 'at one' wth God in heaven. Without being able to be at one with God, I don't believe heaven would be very comfortable, rather the opposite.

Surely then the bible is flawed? If so how do know what aspects are to be believed and followed and what is not? To what extent is the bible of importance to a Christian when it preaches concepts that are at odds with many Christians understanding of God and his nature? You must admit Jesus is very different in his approach that the approach often given by God? That of course seems odd if you believe Jesus and God the same thing? God comes across very Jekyll and Hyde?

I suppose to return to the question my answer would be Jesus' death is not the magic cure its cracked up to be. Depending on your interpretation the path to Heaven is different. But no where can I see that just because Jesus died for our sins we have a guarantied slot in heaven. Especially is you have not heard gods word. Neither does it seem that you need to necessarily act ethically or morally to get into heaven as long as you except Jesus as your saviour you can be quite horrible if you want. I suppose that's why in the films the Mafia whack some guys, go to confession in the church, confess and all is good again. Although the Bible does suggest that if your are Jewish you get a free pass and have totally got it in the bag come the rapture. So Jesus' is death is of total irrelevance to your path to heaven if the Bible is to be believed.

Going off point a bit but I always think that is a bit of a slap in the face to Christians. As if in Gods eyes all Gentiles are second class in the eyes of god. Its also the reason why lots of Christians go out to the occupied lands of Palestine to help Jewish farmers on stolen territory (or not depending on your God). They believe in line with the Bible that the Jewish are gods chosen people and must be protected and supported. Of course this is not repetitive of all Christians, some believe the occupation is wrong even though that line of thought could be seen as contradictory to the bible.

God or an incorrect perception of Him. If you are actually rejecting God/Christ and all that He is and stands for, as I have said before, I don't see

But I don't think he is real to be rejecting him. I haven't got that fair if you see what I mean. It's like unicorns. I don't reject what they stand for (pink fluffy magic rainbows of glitter) I just don't think they exist so what people think they stand for is immaterial.

And I'm pretty sure that even though I'm not a Christian we're pretty much on the same page about a lot of things such as human rights and protecting the vulnerable etc. It doesn't occur to me that you are much different to me because you believe in a God. Do you think I am much different to you? Less kind?

hands how many Unicorns do you know that have committed mass acts of genocide on a various occasions (unless I missed that episode of My Little Pony) and other atrocities? I would much prefer to believe in Unicorns than the God of the bible.