Christianity and capital punishment

[EdithSimcox]

Another dinner table argument. Basic internet research indicates we are both right. But that seems so wrong...

So, DP's view is that yet another reason why it makes no sense to be Christian is that Christians believe in things like capital punishment - citing a kind of US bible belt enthusiasm for the death penalty as being based on biblical authority ("an eye for an eye" etc) and modern secular human rights standards as the counter to that. But to me, and I admit I'm no biblical scholar (or scholar of any kind come to that), the very concept of capital punishment is inherently un-Christian. A religion which promotes loving your enemy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and God's infinite mercy cannot possibly be one which should also approve - in this day and age - of the death penalty. I also think that it is inevitable that the Bible is full of apparent acceptance of things we find abhorrent or irrelevant because it was written in different times. So it is not surprising that in those days the death penalty was more accepted. But now we have other ways of protecting the public, and rehabilitation and so on so there's no excuse.

So, in the 21st century, is continued support for capital punishment compatible with Christianity? Is it common amongst MOTR Christians?

[Bolognese]

OutwiththeOutCrowd - yes I agree with your summary of the debate. You didn't make a conclusion though (probably deliberate lol)?

I would propose if I was in a group where some of the members committed heinous acts and some didn't I would leave that group and start a new one. Barring that the whole group can justifiably be called complicit.

[capsium]

I would propose if I was in a group where some of the members committed heinous acts and some didn't I would leave that group and start a new one. Barring that the whole group can justifiably be called complicit.

Bolognese this is exactly what has happened, throughout the history of the Christian church, with different denominations arising from schisms.

[Bolognese]

capsium- but you haven't have you, you still call your self christian, you still use the same bible with the same heinous acts in them, I imagine you go to a christian church.

Why not leave the christian religion, start capsianity and publish a new bible cutting out all the abhorrent bits? Then you could credible claim to be in a group against the death penalty.

[capsium]

Bolognese I didn't claim to be in a group which is wholly against the death penalty, I just pointed out there are many Christians, including those who posted on this thread, who do not support the death penalty.

Christianity is a big religion, with many followers, there is much diversity in the faith - which in one way is good (complete church unity aside for one moment) because no matter what a person's starting point there will be an aspect within Christianity to connect with.

[Bolognese]

"I didn't claim to be in a group which is wholly against the death penalty"... and that's why I find it hard to understand how you can claim 'christianity as a whole' is incompatible with the death penalty, when you admit it clearly isn't to significant numbers of christians.

[capsium]

Where did I claim that, Bolognese? I can't find it (tried advanced search) and if I did say that it must have been in error.

I don't believe Christianity is incompatible with not supporting the death penalty, which is subtly different to saying the death penalty is never, ever justifiable in extreme circumstances. Deciding what circumstance the death penalty is justifiable, though, is always fraught with difficulty - it is not a choice I would ever want to have to make myself.

[Bolognese]

capsium your dancing on the head of a pin. You have said (capsium Sat 12-Mar-16 20:30:00) that you dont claim to be in a group (christianity) that is completly against the death penalty. Which is akin to saying the group (christianity) that you are in, is partly pro the death penalty.

Wouldn't it be more correct to say christianity as a group has a divided opinion on the matter and therefore cannot claim to have a definitive position on it?

[capsium]

Bolognese the reason I chose to express myself using negative statements was to highlight my belief that not being in support of the death penalty (as many Christian posters on this thread stated their stance) is compatible with Christianity.

Yes, that is not to say that a belief the death penalty is necessary is incompatible with Christianity either, but since this stance, within the believers I know, is something I have little experience of, I instead phrased my post using language in line with my experiences.

Yes, a more neutral statement would be to talk about opinion being 'divided', once this is established, but I was speaking initially from experience and then in response to posters who seemed to be claiming, my own and similar thinking people's stance, was incompatible with Christianity.

[quencher]

Oh know am still typing this an not paying attention and pressed send. Please don't pay attention to the above. I will write it properly.

[quencher]

After reading this whole thread and my little understanding of Christianity and God, I would say that probably the reason for the contradiction in the bible is based on how a believer understands the Bible and god's actions. Thomas aquinas tries to explain this in his third way in the theory of metaphysics. He says that unaided human reason cannot have direct knowledge of things beyond our realm. God and Angels outstrip the human intellect's capacity to know. The only way we can gain access is when God and Angels reveal themselves to humans via revelation. In this instance, it's the different forms Christians say they receive their information from God which can include things like dreams, Visions, miracles etc. 

When studying God's action and how he deals with his creation, I find that there is a lot of contradiction in regards to capital punishment. I would go as far as to say that God has given every human being who has been born and will be born the capital punishment. The fact that according to the book of Genesis God created dam and eve in his image. When they ate one of the forbidden fruits, One of their punishment is death at the end of their life cycle. It is also to follow through to all future generations. 

Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and with his loving nature upon humans constitute gods characteristic to his people. Our understanding of his actions refutes the basis of them all. He could have foreseen what was to happen and have the power to fix his creation. Or he would have had the knowledge in the first place and created a world without evil, fault or flaws. It would give a bad impression on what kind of person he is if he knew that what he created was good and yet it was destroyable. Thomas aquinas would have disagreed with me and said that the absence of good is evil.  Evil itself does not exist. 

We could say that  Adam and Eve were created with free will. The power to decide on wether they would commit that original sin or not and any other future actions. We have that free will too. This is debatable whether it's a flaw or not in god's creation. The Ten Commandments makes God come across like a jealous person with controlling issues. Telling people you are free to do what you want but don't disobey me. From number 1-4 is all about himself. Your free will is within his limits. 

The ten commandment which features in both Deuteronomy and exodus comes as a set of law for god's people to follow. Not really Christians because this was before Christ. It is used by Christians as a template for what was and Jesus's teaching as what is. Jesus agreed with the Decalogue but seems to disagree with how people were treated when they break the law of Moses. God never stated that the people who commit adultery should be stoned to death. Moses did. I would assume this is where cultural influence on how to serve justice comes in to play. Humans given a set of rules and left to interpretation and how to apply it. With Jesus he tells his followers about not following the teachers of the laws and the Pharisees actions but to follow what they say or teach i.e the ten commandments. The actions would have been influenced by everything else around them. 

Thou shall not kill still contradicts what God has set out for humans in Genesis and also the fact that he allowed for his son to suffer the very thing he condemns which is killing. Jesus came on earth purposely to be killed in-order for his followers to gain redemption. Jesus may say that he disagrees with capital punishment but he suffered the very thing knowingly. If we are to believe what is said. Talking about body and blood at the last supper as preparation for his own death. I would go as far as to say it could be called suicide or premeditated murder. 

Other than the reason for Jesus selfless premeditated death to save others. He preached about love, acceptance and believed in forgiveness. He would have disagreed with capital punishment of others as people have given examples above. 
I also think that it is why the Catholic Church disagree with suicide because they believe that you won't be able to repent your sin of murder. It's also the basis for the stance they have on abortion (do not kill ). Scholars debate when life begins and for some Christians especially Catholics it's from the moment of conception. scientist have managed to come up with what stage and less harmful and different countries have different laws.