Christianity and capital punishment

[EdithSimcox]

Another dinner table argument. Basic internet research indicates we are both right. But that seems so wrong...

So, DP's view is that yet another reason why it makes no sense to be Christian is that Christians believe in things like capital punishment - citing a kind of US bible belt enthusiasm for the death penalty as being based on biblical authority ("an eye for an eye" etc) and modern secular human rights standards as the counter to that. But to me, and I admit I'm no biblical scholar (or scholar of any kind come to that), the very concept of capital punishment is inherently un-Christian. A religion which promotes loving your enemy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and God's infinite mercy cannot possibly be one which should also approve - in this day and age - of the death penalty. I also think that it is inevitable that the Bible is full of apparent acceptance of things we find abhorrent or irrelevant because it was written in different times. So it is not surprising that in those days the death penalty was more accepted. But now we have other ways of protecting the public, and rehabilitation and so on so there's no excuse.

So, in the 21st century, is continued support for capital punishment compatible with Christianity? Is it common amongst MOTR Christians?

[AlanPacino]

write as if no-one ever has noticed this incident

it's how the Christians that do know about it try and explain it that makes it so interesting. Quite a lot don't know about it. Or about Jesus telling his disciples to sell their coat to buy a sword. And even think the gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John!

[AlanPacino]

problematic relationships between ethnically-identical groups

Which is the case if you think Jesus was just a bloke.

But if you think he was divine and that what is in the NT is what God wanted there, well, then you're going to have to do some serious double thinking to yourself and others. And probably get irritated when what is in your bible gets brought up.

Bear in mind again I don't think it happened, but how people who do go on to justify it is most interesting.

[niminypiminy]

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at in either of those posts, Alan. I notice, however, that you're a bit coy about explaining what you mean by 'Jesus wasn't immune to a little racism'? I'm happy to have a discussion about that incident - I'm always happy to have a serious discussion about the Bible It would be interesting to know what you actually think.

[AlanPacino]

What I think? I think it didn't happen. I don't think a creator who was powerful enough to make a universe would come to earth and then bother to refer to a woman as a dog because of her race not being the same as the race he had chosen to visit earth as. To me it makes god tiny and petty and human. The bible is about a tiny, petty god.

[niminypiminy]

I don't know if it happened. I think it's entirely possible that Jesus did have an encounter with a non-Jewish woman who asked him to heal her daughter. It's entirely possible that they had a conversation in which he refused to do so, and she challenged him, and he then did heal the child.

Now, let's look at that more closely. Non-Jews were regarded as being unclean because they didn't follow purity laws. The Syro-Phoenicians and Canaanites weren't ethnically distinct from the Jews - race is an anachronistic label to use here because the idea wasn't invented until modern times - but the Jews did live separately and regarded themselves as God's chosen people, marked out by their special way of life.

One of the huge debates among the early Christians (who were, of course, mainly Jews) was about whether gentiles (non-Jews) could become followers of Christ and could be saved by him. What we see here - and in several other episodes in the gospels (the healing of the centurion's servant, the meeting with the Samaritan woman, the parable of the good Samaritan to name only three) is that Jesus extends his ministry beyond the Jews. In this encounter we see Jesus changing his mind - he is persuaded by the woman that even though his ministry was primarily to the Jews, the chosen people, it was also to the gentiles. That has tremendous significance.

I don't think it makes God tiny. It is very clear from the Bible as a whole that God is beyond human comprehension, beyond time and space, almighty and everlasting. As the implications of Jesus's death and resurrection sank in, his followers recognised that all that majesty had come to earth in human form - all divine, all human, had walked the earth, given signs as to who he was, died a miserable criminal's death and was resurrected into new life and finally ascended to heaven. That doesn't seem to me tiny and petty. Human, yes, but petty, no. I have to say, the tininess seems to me in your conception, not in God himself nor in the way he's portrayed in the Bible.

[capsium]

Alan

I remember a lengthy discussion on the Canaanite woman on this thread, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/a2340458-Religion-is-good-because-it-gives-the-believer-an-objective-and-absolute-standard-of-morality#53562131

You might find it interesting.

Edith like the other Christian posters on this thread, I find the death penalty pretty horrific. I can understand it in some extreme circumstances, such as an emergency measure to prevent someone committing mass murder but still find it deeply upsetting because as niminy points out, where is the opportunity for or acknowledgement of redemption with the death penalty?

As with the previous thread I linked to, I think it is pertinent to point out that I strongly believe the person or people personally believing, are the ones most qualified to define those beliefs in question. I often feel like some of the professed atheists on these boards are making a 'straw man' out of posters' personally held and repeatedly professed Christian beliefs, as atheists seem to constantly redefine what Christianity is themselves to their own ends.

[niminypiminy]

BigDorrit, the whole God-Human thing is rather difficult to get your head round, so it's not surprising that you haven't managed to comprehend it at all.

Christ was all human - he was born in a specific time and place and culture, and like all of us humans he could learn from others. (You might say that it is a mark of Jesus's special human qualities that he learned from women in the street - given the status of women at the time that is pretty special.) But he was also all divine - hence his miracles, hence the resurrection. He's both things, not mixed up into a human-divine superhero, but both at once, all the time.

Is it a pathetic God that comes down among us, suffers death, and shows us that death is not the end?

[niminypiminy]

Well, that certainly gives you no motivation to actually try to understand.

[Cuttheraisins]

'And yet he is supposed to be the son of a god, and/or that god himself. It's a pretty pathetic god that needs to be taught morality by a woman in the street...'

Dorrit, many of us would have a lot to learn from a woman in the street. Human or Devine, specifically morality. I don't believe in god either but your argument is complete tosh. Sorry you are the one not making sense here.

[niminypiminy]

Perhaps. In the meanwhile there are some pigs flying past the window.

[capsium]

Dorrit the 'sense' is that a Divine being can choose to experience life being fully human. Fully human involves having physical flesh, physical presence, being in one place at a time, learning, growing older, feeling pain and death.

[EdithSimcox]

to try and excuse muddy thinking with "he moves in a mysterious way" kind of nonsense doesn't convince anyone

I think niminy said it's hard to get your head around; but nothing about mysterious ways.

It is hard to get your head around. That's why I find it endlessly fascinating and rewarding.

[EdithSimcox]

capsium you are right about defining our own beliefs but since I face a lot of assumptions at home about what I 'must' believe it's quite good practice to get the same treatment here

[EdithSimcox]

dorrit what part of 'fully human' do you not get?

[capsium]

BigD I am a woman in the street, quite often when I go out. The Bible contains the experiences of ordinary men and women 'on the street'. People 'on the street' go to churches. Are you ready to learn from these people on the street? Or only your selected few (who agree with you regarding religious belief)?

[capsium]

Glad it helps, Edith.

[EdithSimcox]

It's not an either /or.

[capsium]

I would suggest you can still learn from anyone, BigD. Even the ones talking 'gibberish' should not be dismissed, they will have a story to tell.

[niminypiminy]

As Edith says, it's not either/or, it's both/and. I think it's the word 'both' that BigD is struggling with.

[Bolognese]

If the death penalty is wrong as decreed by a supernatural deity why was it ok in the old testament? If your saying the new testament supersedes the old, then your admitting your deity has changed their mind. Which contradicts the claims of it being an all knowing benevolent god.

As far as I am aware most xtians believe Noah and the ark is a factual event. Now this same deity that is supposedly against the death penalty committed genocide and executed an entire planet because they weren't doing what he wanted them to. Isn't that horrific?

Moving on, if the new testament makes it clear that the death penalty is wrong, then where is the historical evidence showing 2,000 years of xianity opposition to the death penalty? As far as I can understand there are some xtians in the 20th/21st century that are against it but given it was written in the bible 2000 years ago why has it taken so long and why dont all xtians agree?

Which leads me to conclude that the New Testament does not denounce the idea of capital punishment but instead assumes the right of the state to use it.

The fact that some people are against the death penalty, is more likely related to superior secular morality and has very little to do with any organised religion.