Christianity and capital punishment

[EdithSimcox]

Another dinner table argument. Basic internet research indicates we are both right. But that seems so wrong...

So, DP's view is that yet another reason why it makes no sense to be Christian is that Christians believe in things like capital punishment - citing a kind of US bible belt enthusiasm for the death penalty as being based on biblical authority ("an eye for an eye" etc) and modern secular human rights standards as the counter to that. But to me, and I admit I'm no biblical scholar (or scholar of any kind come to that), the very concept of capital punishment is inherently un-Christian. A religion which promotes loving your enemy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and God's infinite mercy cannot possibly be one which should also approve - in this day and age - of the death penalty. I also think that it is inevitable that the Bible is full of apparent acceptance of things we find abhorrent or irrelevant because it was written in different times. So it is not surprising that in those days the death penalty was more accepted. But now we have other ways of protecting the public, and rehabilitation and so on so there's no excuse.

So, in the 21st century, is continued support for capital punishment compatible with Christianity? Is it common amongst MOTR Christians?

[headinhands]

Bolognese you see what I don't understand, is how you can argue, with any sincerity, what Jesus is or isn't / was wasn't, if you don't believe He existed.

We have access to the bible to, a book in which you believe a god made certain claims. If there were no written texts then yes it would be difficult to pin anything down but having the same bible makes it ossicle for us to say 'Why do you believe this bit of the bible but not that?' Or 'Why don't Christians raises dead people?' and so on.

And it's the same for fairies, gods, ghost etc, it's the mind of the person who believes it that's so profoundly interesting, not the belief itself.

[urbanfox1337]

Well this is a silly argument. God doesn't kill people he saves people, even people like headin. Don't you want to go to heaven? What you are forgetting is that the Bible was written by humans so it contains mistakes. And you cant judge God by the standard of humans, he is the judge, he will decide.

Like my DC says, haters gonna hate!

[niminypiminy]

"And it's the same for fairies, gods, ghost etc, it's the mind of the person who believes it that's so profoundly interesting, not the belief itself."

I don't know when I've ever read anything that was so dismissively patronising while at the same time self-deluding.

If you are really interested in the minds of people who believe, you will start out by listening to them, and taking their account of themselves seriously. That is how all proper anthropological and sociological research starts. It's how science works - by really looking at the thing it's interested in finding out about, rather than at the scientist's (or anthropologist's or sociologist's) preconceptions. What I see on this thread, and others where atheists bait believers, is a steadfast refusal to listen and the tedious repetition of their own preconceptions.

When believers try to explain their world view, for the most part they are shouted down, told they are deluded, or have not understood the basics of their own faith, or are simply wrong about its nature. They are told they are irrational, bigoted, indoctrinated and brain-washed. If that is 'a profound interest' in the 'mind of the person who believes' then I'm a banana.

[headinhands]

dismissively patronising while at the same time self-deluding.

I used to be a Christian so the examples of justifications I used are ones that were common in my Christian circles.

I won't apologise for finding beliefs fascinating. I find my own irrationalities interesting too. I appreciate that we can understand how people come to hold contradictory beliefs, but I have a vested interest in the issue. I see it as similar to the importance of studying history, for us to learn and develop.

Could you be more specific about how you feel patronised and feel that I am self deluded?

It's unfortunate that some will feel a swathe of negative feelings when involved in these discussions but that is the nature of such examination. I accept that everyone here is an adult and has the choice not to engage when it gets uncomfortable. This discussion isn't occurring in against your will and requires your participation.

[headinhands]

Don't you want to go to heaven?

Which one? Why do you think the one you believe in is real?

[headinhands]

And you cant judge God by the standard of humans, he is the judge, he will decide.

But God assumes my standards work sufficiently well to choose the right God but then expects me to switch off my standards, those standards I used to find him, when I read the OT?

You seem to be throwing any explanation at it you can. Either you think the OT atrocities did or didn't happen. You seem to be saying 'yes the OT is false because it makes God out to be despicable but even if it isn't false I won't think about it because I'm choosing to switch off the reasoning I used when I suggested the OT must be false?

The OT God is so vile aren't you concerned enough to be very sure you're not mistaken in your belief?

[headinhands]

What you are forgetting is that the Bible was written by humans so it contains mistakes.

I haven't forgotten the bible is written by men. That's how I know it isn't true. Do you think any of the bible is true? How do you determine what is true and what is false? How come Christians over time have decided on what is true and false by their own human moral development such as we see with slavery etc.

[Bolognese]

niminypiminy I don't see anyone shouting, how can they they, its a text forum. Everyone gets to post equally and explain their views equally.

Why do you think other posters aren't listening to you, we only read and respond to what is written. Do you mean listening as in actually believing what others write?

Scientific study does NOT start by taking a belief seriously. It starts with questions, research, hypothesis, testing, analyzing, concluding and then communicating your results. In this case a claim about theism. And so far we haven't had any evidence from theists to support the proposition other than personal opinion.

And if your a banana then you better check out what god did to bananas!

[capsium]

The thing is, Bolognese, headinhands, when faced with a group Christians who do not believe their faith demands or particularly supports capital punishment, you seem to be insinuating this stance is somehow 'unchristian', from you own understanding of the faith, as atheists. Although there are many Christians who experience their faith in the same way, regarding capital punishment, as the posters who do not support it on this thread.

From an unbelievers perspective, Christianity simply involves living life by a book and church tradition. So if the Bible includes capital punishment, if capital punishment was carried out at any time with the church's agreement, then you would say the Christian stance would to be agree with capital punishment.

Yet for believers, their faith is much more than this, it lives in them, is interactive and responsive to each individual situation in their lives - not just a book and church tradition. Engaging with what is written in the Bible does not involve dismissing it all because there is violence, it does not involve dismissing the message of love and forgiveness, which is what is particularly predominant in the NT.

What I take from what is shown throughout the Bible is God's presence right in the midst of His people's lives, whether they be kings, warriors, fishermen, beggars or prostitutes. I don't understand it all, I don't expect to, as I do not live in a particular brutal warrior like culture. Yes, it gets horribly messy but lots of people live horrific violent, messy lives, the accounts of people's experiences in the Bible reflect this. To be true to those people, the Bible needs to tell of their experiences too.

[capsium]

And if you are attempting to ascertain what attitudes form part of a belief system, generally you would study the attitudes of the people who are within the belief system. This would involve accepting what they say at face value, not challenging it because you don't think their attitude forms part of their belief system.

[headinhands]

when faced with a group Christians who do not believe their faith demands or particularly supports capital punishment, you seem to be insinuating this stance is somehow 'unchristian', from you own understanding of the faith,

Nope. It's from reading the same text as you, with the same depictions of a deity that ordered the death of millions upon millions of people. From reading the same passage where God orders the death of a man for picking up sticks. We use the same bible.

[capsium]

headinhands from a faith position you do more than just read the Bible though, it is an interactive process, since it involves actually engaging with what is been said by the text, on a deeper level than dismissing it at first glance.

[headinhands]

t lives in them, is interactive and responsive to each individual situation in their lives

Which is a point too easily invalidated by the many existent contradictory opinions on what God wants within the Christian Faith. No two Christians agree. Naturally you think you're on the right path. Many people who are in as an equally fulfilling, beautifully intimate, and enduring relationship with the same God as your 'knows' that God is not happy with certain things that you 'know' God is happy about.

[capsium]

headinhands if a person is encountering the Bible from a faith position, though, it is different from just reading it. Coming from a faith position involves engaging with the text more deeply than dismissing it at first glance because some of the contents are unsettling.

[headinhands]

Engaging with what is written in the Bible does not involve dismissing it all because there is violence,

I could not dismiss deliberate and wanton violence my DH visited on other humans. To do so because it was a 'while ago' is very very naive.

[capsium]

Of course, people have different experiences of faith. They come from different backgrounds, live in different circumstances, have different life experiences and understand differently. We all learn differently and it is a life long process.

[headinhands]

Yes, it gets horribly messy but lots of people live horrific violent, messy lives, the accounts of people's experiences in the Bible reflect this.

But we're talking about the brutality meted out by God. If the BBC news website was awash today with God having drowned the whole of Indonesia because they had a different God would you honesty think 'ah well, life's tough anyway in that neck of the woods?'

[headinhands]

generally you would study the attitudes of the people who are within the belief system

And no two of them would entirely agree with some very mutually exclusive beliefs. And as I said, we have access to the bible. I still have all the ones I had when I was a believer, even with my earnest underlining.

[capsium]

head but you are dismissing the violence in a way by refusing to acknowledge the Bible as holding any truth. Life is not sanitized. The Bible reflects this. People, often even good people, are and have been brought to violence for centuries. There is a harsh side to life.

[headinhands]

This would involve accepting what they say at face value,

I don't think people are fabricating beliefs, just that they might not have realised that some of their beliefs actually contradict in a way that I personally would be concerns about.

I invite and relish my thinking being examined. If I am challenged and feel unable to defend my reasoning I go away and work out where the problem is.

[capsium]

And no two of them would entirely agree with some very mutually exclusive beliefs. And as I said, we have access to the bible. I still have all the ones I had when I was a believer, even with my earnest underlining.

If this is what is found, this is what Christian belief involves. There is not complete church unity yet, because we all do learn, understand and experience individually.

[headinhands]

not challenging it because you don't think their attitude forms part of their belief system.

But we both live within reality. And we can both read the bible. And we probably both have a 21st century morality.

Again, this is a public debate forum. I don't go into people's houses uninvited, I don't get involved in such discussions at work or with family. I smile and nod.

[headinhands]

because we all do learn, understand and experience individually

But you're all talking to the same one God. And he tells you different things. I don't tell half the people in my life that I find homosexuality unacceptable while going along with the other half to gay pride.

[headinhands]

brought to violence for centuries. There is a harsh side to life.

Is God still actively bringing good people to violence? Why does he bring more poor women and children to violence than any other group?

[capsium]

I don't think people are fabricating beliefs, just that they might not have realised that some of their beliefs actually contradict in a way that I personally would be concerns about.

I actually think this statement is a little naive. Of course I realise there are apparent contradictions in within Christian belief, however I think this is because there is missing information which would bridge the opposite belief positions. My goal is to find this missing information rather than dismiss one assertion.