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Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Philosophy/religion

Christianity and capital punishment

186 replies

EdithSimcox · 07/03/2016 22:39

Another dinner table argument. Basic internet research indicates we are both right. But that seems so wrong...

So, DP's view is that yet another reason why it makes no sense to be Christian is that Christians believe in things like capital punishment - citing a kind of US bible belt enthusiasm for the death penalty as being based on biblical authority ("an eye for an eye" etc) and modern secular human rights standards as the counter to that. But to me, and I admit I'm no biblical scholar (or scholar of any kind come to that), the very concept of capital punishment is inherently un-Christian. A religion which promotes loving your enemy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and God's infinite mercy cannot possibly be one which should also approve - in this day and age - of the death penalty. I also think that it is inevitable that the Bible is full of apparent acceptance of things we find abhorrent or irrelevant because it was written in different times. So it is not surprising that in those days the death penalty was more accepted. But now we have other ways of protecting the public, and rehabilitation and so on so there's no excuse.

So, in the 21st century, is continued support for capital punishment compatible with Christianity? Is it common amongst MOTR Christians?

OP posts:

Report

Lweji · 09/03/2016 09:22

Lweji - so you believe in the bible, but only half of it?
How do you decide what meaning to give the words that jesus apparently spoke?

It's not half of it. For the most part, even the Old Testament is not in favour of capital punishment. More war, which is different. But deaths, as far as I remember, are met at the hands of God, not people. For example, Daniel was put in a lions den. It was divine justice rather than execution.
There is nothing in Christ's message that calls for retribution on crimes or sins, but rather forgiveness.
And although the New Testament is informed by the Old Testament, for a Christian, by definition, it should take precedence

EdithSimcox · 09/03/2016 10:39

dione yes it was an unfortunate and accidental conversation!

OP posts:

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 15:08

niminypiminy / capsium, jesus was absolutely a demigod. The definition of a demigod is the offspring of a god and a human, which perfectly describes him. Of course when his mythology was being created he needed to be elevated above the competition, so over the years convoluted explanations have been woven to give him the powers of a full god. The pantheon of the holy trinity is another interesting bit of mental gymnastics ...

Jesus died a shameful, criminal's death? I can think of a lot of celebrities that fall into that category. You should separate historical fact from myths & legends, it still have not been proven that jesus even existed, never mind any supernatural shenanigans.

Lweji, Ok so you dont personally believe in the death penalty but you believe the god you worship is allowed to use the death penalty, so much so that he is allowed to commit genocide and you think that's ok?

Lweji · 09/03/2016 15:21

Lweji, Ok so you dont personally believe in the death penalty but you believe the god you worship is allowed to use the death penalty, so much so that he is allowed to commit genocide and you think that's ok?

I don't know how you infer any of those statements from what I wrote.
I didn't say I thought God was allowed, or even thought God did actively kill anyone.
Just that, as far as the Bible is concerned, death was not put directly in the hands of humans, or should be a decision for humans. Which means that I don't think we can justify the death penalty with the Bible at all.
And that Christ's message is very far from any sort of punishment to those who harm us, let alone kill them.

For a Christian, death is not necessarily a penalty, though, or a bad thing, as being with God is the ultimate reward.

capsium · 09/03/2016 15:21

Bolognese you see what I don't understand, is how you can argue, with any sincerity, what Jesus is or isn't / was wasn't, if you don't believe He existed.

It is like arguing over what power(s) fairies have, whilst not believing in them.

If you just regard God as a 'construct', who owns that 'construct'? Those who hold the 'construct' or those who observe it?

Alternatively, how would you regard a chauvinist's definition of what feminism is?

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 16:25

Lweji "deaths, as far as I remember, are met at the hands of God, not people." does this not mean that god is carrying out a death penalty?

capsium - I am arguing about the mythology of jesus as illustrated in the texts that are available eg the bible. Just like I can sincerely debate any mythology (including fairies) from the texts they are described in? That does not make me insincere!

If you regard God as a 'construct' of your imagination then I probably wouldn't be debating it with you. But of course people claim historical facts, make laws, start wars, etc on those beliefs, so if it should not be left to one group to make claims without having to account for them.

capsium · 09/03/2016 16:37

Bolognese but why are you keen to argue that God in the Bible is a barbaric, vengeful God rather than the loving, forgiving one, that the Christian believers on this thread believe in? Would you rather we revered barbarism and revenge? And acted as such?

Lweji · 09/03/2016 17:11

Lweji "deaths, as far as I remember, are met at the hands of God, not people." does this not mean that god is carrying out a death penalty?

It might have been subtle, but, as in my previous post:
"I didn't say I thought God was allowed, or even thought God did actively kill anyone."
I was talking at how it was presented in the Bible.

Lweji · 09/03/2016 17:12

To be clear, in relation to your comment
"Ok so you dont personally believe in the death penalty but you believe the god you worship is allowed to use the death penalty, so much so that he is allowed to commit genocide and you think that's ok?"

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 17:28

I accept that some people think the xtian god is loving and caring. But looking in on it from the outside the bible describes a barbaric and vengeful god. Even accepting the new testament supersedes the old, imo a leopard doesn't change its spots.
The op talks about the death penalty but no where does it say in the new testament that it is wrong, one has to 'interrupt' vague passages to arrive at that conclusion, and as many people reach the opposite conclusion.

In my personal experience I do not see organized religion doing much good, in fact I see it doing a lot wrong. In individual people I see good people doing bad things in spite of their inherent goodness precisely because of their beliefs.
You say your god is forgiving but most people don't need forgiving, most people are not evil.
All the evidence points to the god of the bible as ... a bad influence at best.

Like a 'gateway' drug the moderate religions make it acceptable to believe in the irrational and for extremists to believe in the extremely irrational! It is very worrying.

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 17:33

Lweji So I am trying to understand what you believe then. You dont believe any reference in the bible to god killing or commanding other to kill?

Or are you saying you believe, "It was divine justice rather than execution", when humans kill its the death penalty but when god kills its divine justice?

capsium · 09/03/2016 17:38

Really, 'gateway drug', seeing as you think like this what do you propose to do about it, Bolognese? Should we not be 'allowed' to hold Christian beliefs or talk about them? Should the Bible be banned? Churches be shut down?

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 19:20

I believe in free speech and would defend your right to hold any belief you have. Most certainly dont believe in banning things.

All I would do is what I am doing, trying to believe in as many true things as possible and challenging irrational and false information where appropriate.

Lweji · 09/03/2016 19:53

Bolognese

And I'm not talking about what I believe. I'm talking about Christianity and capital punishment, and how a Christian would derive their views on it from the Bible.

My personal beliefs are one thing, and fair enough that you are interested in them, but you don't sound interested. More confrontational.

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 21:13

Lweji - So your not talking about what you believe in, your just discussing the bible? Ok, so how do you explain views about capital punishment and worshiping a god who is depicted as drowning 20 million people (estimated) in Genisis?

Actually I am very interested but I will confront views/opinions with logical questions in an attempt to get to any underlying truths.

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 21:13

Sorry, Genesis!

Lweji · 09/03/2016 21:16

I don't explain views about capital punishment and worshiping a god capable of the big flood.
I'm not a mind reader.
Not sure what you want with that question.

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 21:50

Lweji - then why you posting on a public forum about expressing views if you are keeping your views secret. That is exactly why I think xtianity is a myth because when you get to the pertinent questions worshipers have no answers. Pathetic.

Lweji · 09/03/2016 21:51

When you start asking proper questions, then I may (or not answer). It's a public forum, so I reply to what I want.

But you haven't asked for any of my views. You told me what they were.

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 22:06

Lweji It is generally assumed when people post on MN they are giving their views.... So what are yours?

Lweji · 09/03/2016 22:20

On what exactly?
I have many views.

I've already said what I think the Christian position should be based on what the Bible says.

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 22:35

Is continued support for capital punishment compatible with Christianity?

Lweji: I'm not talking about what I believe... I don't explain views about capital punishment..... When you start asking proper questions, then I may (or not answer)... you haven't asked for any of my views...

So what are yours?...

Lweji: On what exactly?

Is continued support for capital punishment compatible with Christianity?

You are a TROLL

Lweji · 09/03/2016 22:48

Yes. Check the relevant thread. :)

I've already answered the other question repeated on your post. But then you decided to twist my posts (and are still doing it).
Whenever you want to have a proper conversation, please let me know.

Bolognese · 09/03/2016 23:10

Whenever you want to have a proper conversation, please let me know.

about what?

headinhands · 10/03/2016 07:21

Bolognese but why are you keen to argue that God in the Bible is a barbaric, vengeful God rather than the loving, forgiving one, that the Christian believers on this thread believe in? Would you rather we revered barbarism and revenge? And acted as such?

God in the bible is barbaric and vengeful, it's not something that needs to be 'argued'.

What fascinates many of those who don't believe is the believers ability to sweep aside that element of the bible. I used to believe too so I'd like to understand how I contained the contradiction in any coherent way. Yes there are many instances of kind things, but they don't cancel out the psychopathy. I know Christians use the analogy of a coin with two sides but that is farcical. My husband is loving and patient, if I find out he also drowns people who don't like him would I just say 'well, that's just the other side of the coin'. It's nonsense isn't it.

In a round about and reluctant way you do revere barbarism because you believe the bible to be part of gods message, yet you are clearly forced into a very uncomfortable position. It's because I know that you are a generally coherent and kind person that this conversation in possible and that this issue comes up as often as it does. As long as most Christians are kind then those without faith who know the bible will ponder how they square it to themselves.

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