Christianity and capital punishment

[EdithSimcox]

Another dinner table argument. Basic internet research indicates we are both right. But that seems so wrong...

So, DP's view is that yet another reason why it makes no sense to be Christian is that Christians believe in things like capital punishment - citing a kind of US bible belt enthusiasm for the death penalty as being based on biblical authority ("an eye for an eye" etc) and modern secular human rights standards as the counter to that. But to me, and I admit I'm no biblical scholar (or scholar of any kind come to that), the very concept of capital punishment is inherently un-Christian. A religion which promotes loving your enemy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and God's infinite mercy cannot possibly be one which should also approve - in this day and age - of the death penalty. I also think that it is inevitable that the Bible is full of apparent acceptance of things we find abhorrent or irrelevant because it was written in different times. So it is not surprising that in those days the death penalty was more accepted. But now we have other ways of protecting the public, and rehabilitation and so on so there's no excuse.

So, in the 21st century, is continued support for capital punishment compatible with Christianity? Is it common amongst MOTR Christians?

[headinhands]

We all learn differently and it is a life long process.

You can get a 16 year old from Glasgow and a 67 year old from Mogadishu and teach them both well enough to get them through a physics degree in a few years.

[capsium]

Is God still actively bringing good people to violence? Why does he bring more poor women and children to violence than any other group?

I never said God brings people to violence, rather people find themselves in difficult to manage situations and see violence as their only option.

[headinhands]

My goal is to find this missing information

What missing information?

[capsium]

You can get a 16 year old from Glasgow and a 67 year old from Mogadishu and teach them both well enough to get them through a physics degree in a few years.

There's a great deal more to life than physics though.

[capsium]

What missing information?

The information (often contextual) which bridges the gap between two polarised perspectives.

[headinhands]

Coming from a faith position involves engaging with the text more deeply

Which is a point easily invalidated by the number of biblical scholars who reject any of the claims it makes. And the number of biblical scholars who have studied it as well as you, with the same God sitting with them, and come to contradictory conclusions!

[headinhands]

The information (often contextual) which bridges the gap between two polarised perspectives.

Any ideas what the missing information might be between the two?

[headinhands]

There's a great deal more to life than physics though

Straw man. The point is if humans are able to transmit degree level physics to two wildly different people in 36 months why do Christians from the same culture of the same age and length of belief have contradictory beliefs. Both of the physics graduates would have grasped that water is h2o. You wouldn't get one thinking that water was co2.

[capsium]

head

And the number of biblical scholars who have studied it as well as you, with the same God sitting with them, and come to contradictory conclusions

As I have previously explained, I don't expect them not to. Instead I tend to look for ways to bridge the gap between the two polarised positions, in order to seek unity. Although saying this, the primary message I take from my faith is love - so anything coming from a position of hatred I would be cautious of (cautious because it can be difficult to ascertain what is the exact motivation behind what people say they believe).

[capsium]

straw man

But degree level physics is not what this discussion or faith is about. I think the faith brings up much deeper questions, much more of a breadth of questions, which are infinitely more difficult to find answers for, as it involves aspects of life and death which are untestable.

[capsium]

Any ideas what the missing information might be between the two?

It would be different contexts which would show the right action in an individual context. Every context is unique, understanding culminates as experience of different contexts accumulates.

[headinhands]

different contexts

So what might be immoral or sinful tomorrow might be okay today? Can you think of the context where it might be acceptable for go to drown babies?

[capsium]

So what might be immoral or sinful tomorrow might be okay today?

I believe contexts are unique but what is immoral or sinful remains the same - I view the sinful/morality as a quality (not a particular set of actions) which expresses differently according to context.

[capsium]

That should be the essence of what is sinful or immoral remains the same, as people's degree of morality/sinfulness can alter throughout life.

[headinhands]

So two different people could be raping someone and one person isn't sinning but the other is?

Or two people could be drowning babies and one is sinning but one isn't?

[headinhands]

Sorry, how does this relate to the missing information that would explain God being loving but drowning babies?

It's such a massive contradiction, and without any other compelling evidence surely a more sensible position would be to hold off from belief?

[headinhands]

I never said God brings people to violence,

So you must believe that the bible is full of lies. You reject all the depictions of God ordering others to kill or God killing people himself? Yet all the depictions of God being nice are utterly true and to be taken at five value? And you don't see how you're using your 21st century morality outside of any faith to make those judgements.

Why would God be happy for that to be said about him. I wouldn't.

[headinhands]

My goal is to find this missing information rather than dismiss one assertion.

But you've already assumed there will be information that will allow you to jettison the nasty depictions of God. With such a viscous portrayal I would think it more sensible to take a neutral position until further evidence arises.

[capsium]

Regarding hypothetical situations, head, I really cannot answer because they are not real. And yes, life to me is precious, it really is extremely difficult (near on impossible) for me to imagine a situation where ending a life would be a good thing to do but I have grown up in very different circumstances to those writers of the OT.

I didn't say God brings people to violence, I didn't say He doesn't, however my experience of God through Christ is loving and forgiving.

What you think is sensible, head, does not really affect me that much. My faith is experiential not just hypothetical arguments extrapolated from a surface reading of selective bits (mainly the more violent so accounts in the OT) of the Bible.

[headinhands]

really cannot answer because they are not real.

We both know why you cannot answer. You don't want to be seen to judge God as morally inferior even though your refusal to answer acknowledges that you've already done so.

[capsium]

head to think you are qualified to read what goes on in my mind is really very arrogant. As I said, my faith is experiential, been 'seen' to say/do anything is not the primary motivation for what I say or do, my motivations are heart felt - not calculated in terms of what looks good to a particular audience.

[Bolognese]

I would agree that a majority of christians in the UK are against the death penalty but the majority of the whole population would be against it no matter what faith and none they have. So I would suggest it isn't because anyone is christian but because they have been brought up with modern western secular morality. Just imagine, if tomorrow jesus was proved not to have existed, would christians suddenly behave differently? I don't think so, because their core morality isn't founded in religion (only talking about the UK here).

Different people seem to be using different definitions. Posters who are christians are taking a personal view, that they and those around them are against killing, so therefore conclude support for capital punishment is not compatible with christianity. Conversely non-christians are debating whether or not christianity as a whole takes a view on killing. And the evidence from all around the world and in religious texts is that as a whole christianty can indeed be compatible with the death penalty because there are plenty of examples where it is and has. Hence the incompatibility with UK christians personal views that atheists find hard to understand.

Capsium seems to describe this difference between christianity as a whole and their personal experience as missing information. That christianity hasn't found this 'missing information' in 2000 years would strongly suggest it isn't there. A lot of people coming from a neutral perspective would conclude that if something hasn't been demonstrated with significant confidence for 2000 years then you need to go back to the drawing board.

A number of people exhibit something called confirmation bias (USA presidential candidate Ben Carson is a stunning example of this phenomenon). Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for information in a way that confirms one's beliefs while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position, even when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false.

It would seem in this debate over the compatibility of christianity with the death penalty, there is a lot of confirmation bias. More info on Confirmation bias

[niminypiminy]

I think in opinion polls a majority of the population are in favour of the death penalty.

[Bolognese]

I think you will find support for capital punishment in Britian is below 50% aka a minority.
British Social Attitudes Report 2015

Since we are talking statistics:
50% of the prison population in Britian is christian
30% are no religion
14% are muslim
Prison population 2015

Make of that what you will.