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Original poster

"Prove to me god doesn't exist"

141 replies

TanithDaUnicorn · 08/02/2016 19:21

This argument is usually used in a debate when you've backed a religious person into a corner, and they can't answer. They always have this in their arsenal. Right next to "Mysterious ways" And "That's just what I believe"

How arrogant that you (Talking to someone who would use this argument) Think it is MY job to prove to YOU that your god doesn't exist. Prove to me Pink unicorns don't exist. Can't? Then you should believe it because you can't rule it out!

You may think that example is a little extreme but I see no difference between "Prove to me god doesn't really exist" To "Prove to me lord voldemort doesn't really exist"

What are your thoughts on this argument? Do you use it? Has someone used it on you? Do you get as frustrated as I do?

OP posts:
PosieReturningParker · 08/02/2016 22:03

Faith like ideology doesn't rely on fact or reason, it's that that is the very burden of faith. As an atheist anti theist I find the notion of belief beyond reason and anything I could ever do, but still understand how the defence of faith works.

Reason isn't required to have faith and as such reason won't take it away.

Myredcardigan · 08/02/2016 22:09

But I'm not a believer. It's just that I know plenty of people of varying faith and none and whilst they often engage in debate with me and others, nobody have ever tried to convert anyone else. I've only ever experienced that sort of thing from the JWs coming to the door. And nobody ever seems angry.

DadOnIce · 09/02/2016 12:06

When you believe something intuitively, it's very difficult to get "argued out" of that position, no matter how watertight the arguments.

Put another way, you can't use logic to get someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get into in the first place.

Human beings will always believe irrational stuff. The Ancient Egyptians believed the sun was pushed across the sky by a giant beetle - in several thousand years' time, the belief in the omnipotent and omniscient Judeo-Christian God will seem equally bizarre. And will have been replaced by something else just as ridiculous.

PosieReturningParker · 09/02/2016 17:46

Belief is not intuitive, it is always indoctrinated.

PosieReturningParker · 09/02/2016 17:47

I've been subjected to many a conversion conversation!!

Bolognese · 10/02/2016 00:23

The answer is very simple, you cant prove a negative. Gods, faeries, leprechauns... you cant prove anything doesn't exist. The response is also simple, the burden of proof is upon the person making the claim. If a person makes a claim that a god exists then they have to prove it exists. Which as far as I am aware no one in the history of humanity has ever managed to do.

The often mistaken idea that atheists claim their is no god and so should prove it so or shut up, is wrong. Atheists dont claim their is no god, atheists are only responding that they dont accept the claim of theists that there is a god. These are 2 different things.

Unfortunately in a debate theists can revert from a discussion about what can/is proven, to a position of faith and no knowledge can dent that delusion.

On a side note I would accept that creationism isn't taught in most English schools but I do have personal experience that in primary schools (especially church schools) teachers do push their personal opinion upon vulnerable children. Shame on them. Sadly I hear it is a LOT worse in America.

EdithSimcox · 10/02/2016 12:00

Belief is not intuitive, it is always indoctrinated.

Is that supposed to be a fact Posie, or your opinion? What do you base it on?

Bolognese · 10/02/2016 19:53

Actually humans evolved to instinctively recognise intelligence agency. There is overwhelming evidence for this. It kept us alive whether it was true or not. Most likely as a side affect this was what made us susceptible to believing in a creator.

So you could arguably say belief is intuitive, that does not mean it is good to follow your intuition because we are not cavemen anymore. But faith, most certainly is indoctrinated.

DadOnIce · 12/02/2016 14:44

"Intuitive" was probably a wrong choice of word. I was trying to point out that people base it on a scientifically-bollocks "feeling" of God rather than any anything rationally/ logically demonstrable.

Chiggers · 12/02/2016 21:54

People brought up in different cultures tend to be indoctrinated to believe in different gods/goddesses, depending on which culture they were raised in.

For example, a child raised with Hinduism, will believe in Vishnu/Brahma/Shiva/Surya etc. The children raise within the Islamic religion, will believe in Allah and Mohammed. Children brought up within any of the 40,000+ denominations of Christianity will believe in God and Jesus. In Ancient Greece, people believed in many gods such as Zeus/Aphrodite/Hermes/Dionysus etc. So I would be dubious about anyone who tells me that belief is not indoctrination.

All people are born as non-believers as a baby hasn't the capacity to believe in any gods, so people ARE indoctrinated into the religion their parents belong to.

Chiggers · 12/02/2016 22:31

WRT atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in God due to no evidence of God's existence.

A person who say that God DOESN'T exist cannot prove this due to it being a negative claim. We know that negative claims do not leave any evidence and therefore cannot be proven. The burden of proof is never on the person who makes a negative claim.

Any person who makes the positive claim that God DOES exist, has the burden of proving their claim is true. If something exists, there will generally be evidence to support it's existence.

Atheism is the rejection of the claim that God exists and is true, because that claim hasn't met it's burden of proof.

Many atheists in America have been ostracised for their lack of belief. Jessica Ahlquist is a prime example of how people are so indoctrinated into the Christian faith, that millions actually think that a person who doesn't believe in God, must be a devil worshipper. Many also believe that atheists can't be good people because they don't have God in their lives. If that is not indoctrination, then I don't know what is.

Vincitveritas · 28/10/2022 17:55

🧟‍♂️🧟🧟‍♀️

Vincitveritas · 28/10/2022 17:58

From Quora no less, the fount of all knowledge. 🙄

Vincitveritas · 28/10/2022 18:12

Your example is barely legible. I've read it twice and it still makes no sense.

Also, I find it's (a minority of) atheists who say the burden of proof falls on Christians and therefore they should prove that God exists, not the other way around.

Barbe63 · 28/10/2022 21:20

What is not legible? English is not my natal language so I might have done mistakes.

Barbe63 · 28/10/2022 21:22

1- I'm not talking specifically to Christians, every religions are concerned.
2- can I present the proof of God not existing if I find it or wtf?

Fairislefandango · 28/10/2022 21:39

I'm a staunch atheist, no shrinking violet and have had some very robust debates about religion. Plus I agree with your initial post. There's really no need to be as aggressive and unpleasant as you have been in your later posts though. Or to imply that religious people are by definition stupid. Plenty of intelligent people have been religious.

Vincitveritas · 28/10/2022 21:40

My apologies @Barbe63 that was a little harsh. Proof is a strong word, could you please clarify.

Meadowland · 28/10/2022 22:27

You cant prove god, neither can you disprove.
Therefore choosing to believe, or not choosing to believe, is the individuals choice.

Unless you have absolute proof one way or the other, you cant call stupid, idiotic or ridiculous. Neither should you try and persuade otherwise someone by offering "proof".

This

Barbe63 · 28/10/2022 22:28

Okay, no harm done. I will try to be more explicit and hope I won't do too much English mistakes.
I will try to use the formal way of presenting a proof but I need to study more on how to properly do it. Please follow my reasoning. Here are the premises:

1: The infinite timeline without a start principle
In an infinite timeline without a start, nothing can happen if it didn’t happened an infinite amount of time before.
2: God definition
God is a being who has to be at the origin of everything and nothing can be at the origin of God.
3: Chronology of infinities
There can’t be a thing existing before another if both have always existed.
4: The universe exists
5: 2 implies that God would be in an infinite timeline without a start.

Conclusion: God doesn't exist

Reasoning about premises:
1: Let's assume that 1 is wrong, then for an event in such a timeline that would occur for the first time, the answer to the question "How much time has past before the event occurs for the first time?" is mathematically "an infinite amount of time". That leads to a paradox, because something happening after an infinite amount of time would never happen. Then 1 is true.
2: If someone or something is at the origin of God, then he's not God but either a creation of the real God or the result of a scientific explainable process like we are.
3 and 4 hopefully don't need further explanations.
5: By the definition of God (2), if nothing is at the origin of God then God would have always existed is the only solution left. God then would have an infinite timeline without a start.

Reasoning:
If God exists, then his creation also called our universe either:
-was created as an unique event. Because of 5, God would be in the infinite timeline without a start case and because of 1, this is not possible. Creation would have to have always existed as nothing can happen for the first time in such a timeline. The answer to "How much time has past before the creation?" would be "an infinite amount of time" and leads to the paradox that it can then never happen.
-have always existed. Because of 5 God have also always existed, because of 2 God have created the universe and so have to exist before the creation, and because of 3, you can't make a chronology before God and his creation, this is also impossible.
In all the cases explored God cannot exist along with his creation. Because of 4 we reach the conclusion that God doesn't exist.

AnorLondo · 28/10/2022 22:38

I'm still not sure why you bumped a six year old thread to promote your quora account.

Barbe63 · 28/10/2022 22:39

I'm bumping whatever I can find to promote what I have found

Vincitveritas · 28/10/2022 23:36

@Barbe63 Thank you for the further explanation Barbe. You are naturally coming at it from the angle of a human, with a human's understanding of time and space. God is outside of time and space and therefore not under it's influence. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. As Psalm 90:4 puts it, "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." and 2 Peter 3:8, "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Ponderingwindow · 28/10/2022 23:47

I know it’s a zombie, but it’s an interesting question.

my response is that it doesn’t matter if a god exists because what most people view as a god is just a being that is different than is. The status of god is only bestowed by agreeing to worship which is an abhorrent practice.

if there is a benign being that has something to do with our existence, then that has absolutely nothing to do with me. It is simply another being that happens to be at a different point in development. It’s possible one day humans might even reach that point.

it is also possible that there is a being that judges our existence and determines our fate by some arbitrary set of rules. I find that problematic. If the evaluation criteria in any way include our willingness to worship this being, then we should be plotting a revolution.