AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

They must think it's superior. Otherwise they wouldn't think it was OK for them to use it as an excuse to ride roughshod over the needs and wishes of other people.......

"There is a huge emphasis on trying to live ethically, a constant message that morality is hugely important"

While, as aforesaid, riding roughshod over the needs and wishes of other people....

Incidentally-do you really think that non Christian people don't give a flying fuck about others and are completely amoral?

Of course not. I'm saying there's probably usually a greater emphasis on being moral, what with the frequent practices that are not present in (most) non-faith schools as there is no tradition/structure for it.

Originally church schools were set up to educate children who couldn't afford it. Obviously that doesn't apply now.

"In this scene the writer of John has Jesus reassure those of his followers who had not witnessed the resurrection that they are blessed 'blessed be those who have not seen and have come to believe'."

interesting- and not the usual interpretation. The Bible really can be all things to all men, can't it?

I'm saying there's probably usually a greater emphasis on being moral, what with the frequent practices that are not present in (most) non-faith schools as there is no tradition/structure for it

Although of course all schools are required to do a daily act of collective worship.

Yes, but there's a significant difference between one act of worship and my list.

So you are basically saying that Christians are more ethical and moral than non Christians?

I didn't mention Christians.

I said that there is more emphasis on being moral.

There is more emphasis on being moral in faith schools......evidence, please?

If I was to believe in a god I would need to find it superior to me. A god that limps awkwardly behind human morality can't be 'God'.

more emphasis on being moral.

Example please?

Of course people of any religion or no religion can choose to stick to a moral code. Religion shouldn't be about claiming to be better than anyone else, as we all fail at some time. We all have that in common. The difference is more about what happens next, as a religious person will perhaps look for forgiveness from God or look at their holy book for guidance, whereas a non-religious person will find their moral code somewhere else. So it's a different approach and ethos, which some will prefer and some won't.

But all of this stuff is just irrelevant, anyway. Yes, people might very well want a faith school for their child and they might have very good reasons.

The fundamental point is that it is not equitable that faith families have a choice of 33% more taxpayer funded, state schools than non faith families.

However many angels people set dancing on the heads of pins, that is the crux of the matter. It is completely indefensible. As evidenced by the failure of people on this thread to defend it.

Who are these bronze age people of whom you speak?

yeah, that's the central point.

I refer you to the wiki page on the abolitionist movement in Britain which makes it clear that abolition was overwhelmingly Christian

As I said, I think it's great that the bible can be used to justify abolition. But the reason why one ought to not think the bible has any special high ground is that it can be used to justify slavery, as it did from early times to abolition.

wouldn't a better book be able to justify abolition and not be able to be used to justify slavery? There are lots of books out there that qualify.

I would consider that a more telling criticism if I could see any evidence of actually listening to what Christians have to say about the Bible.

so, what do christians say about the bible? Is it more than just a book of parables of historical importance that really does belong in the past? Or, is it a special book, divinely inspired?

Why use the Bible - with all its difficulties and contradictions - as a tool to think about the present?

because christians ask us to. Because they insist it be taught and prayed to in state schools (of course, not what I think). Because many christians claim it is a source of eternal wisdom. Why do I think this? cue...

Because God is always relevant.

no he's not. Not to me.

The task is to interpret it

no, it's not. The task is to see it for what it is. A book. A very flawed book. Written by men whose ideas reflect the time, a time where really bad practices were accepted daily.

Of course, we have more knowledge than the people who wrote the Bible, but do we have more wisdom?

yes, we really do. When someone asks if slavery is wrong, almost no one will give the wrong answer now.

It's absolutely classic that when these ancient books lose ground to modern thinking, the way to deal with it is backing off from things we can know, to things we have more trouble with. "Knowledge" is measurable, as are specific predictions. But "wisdom"? Well, there's a reason why we are using that word now.

I disagree that we can feel sure we have more wisdom now. We don't seem to be any happier. We treat our elderly people worse than we used to. Same with new mums - where is the support young mums used to get from extended family and neighbours - there are reasons for that such as technology enabling people to live further away but new mums are now expected to be superheroes. Londoners are priced out of the housing market by billionaires and buy to let landlords. Many a modern person appears to worship money and or youth and beauty. There are much greater pressures on teenagers now.

Dismiss the wisdom of religion(s) at your peril! The practices they promote are very relevant to today. Eg meditation and mindfulness (Buddhist), looking after your body and mind through 'healthy' living (all religions as far as I can see) Eg, didn't the WHO recently advise that no amount of alcohol is safe (muslims and other faiths) Vegetarianism which is much better for the environment and often healthier is advised by various religions.

The task is to interpret it - and contrary to what so many atheists seem to think, that doesn't mean taking it literally.

Jesus took the OT literally. Considering Christians feel that the bible is the most important text known to man, and that interpreting it properly can determine your eternity, isn't it a shocking way of delivering such a vital message. Where I work we have the instructions for CPR on the wall. How logical would it be if the people devising such an important message chose to do so through poetry where the reader needed to interpret the words, know about the history of the author and their cultural upbringing knowing that because of their poor choice of transmission many people would suffer due to everyone interpreting it differently.

a deeper wisdom.

And I bet my house you can't even think of one specific example of a piece of wisdom you got from the bible that I am unable to garner via other means.

We may think slavery is wrong but there are still too many living in forms of enslavement -bonded labour, for example. Are we better at living in harmony with our neighbours than our ancestors? Do we treat the earth and all its creatures with more respect? Do we take what we need and no more? Do we care better for the outcast, the lonely and the I'll in mind or body? Do we orient our lives towards what really matters or are we continually distracted by consuming things we don't need? Have we got better at not hurting other people, even those we love the most?

It

^I object far more to single sex schools than to faith ones.

The reason why faith schools remain popular is that they often get much better results because the kids are taught to respect other people and its not all "me, me, me" and how to behave, which means that they can learn. Whereas so often children at non faith schools aren't taught any morals or why doing bad things is wrong, so they don't understand why disrupting every class is wrong or that the world doesn't revolve around them.^

Fuck Me!!! Remember people. If you do it send your children to a faith school and force myths and fairy tales on them You are immoral, your children are immoral, they will never know right from wrong, it is after all NOT the responsibility of parents to teach these thing, but the State, your children will have no manners, no respect, as human beings they are basically fucked forever...

Okay, got it.

AarggHh. If you do Not

1. Jesus didn't take the Hebrew Scriptures literally. His quotations are interpretations and reinterpretations, often in symbolic terms.

1. The reason why you find other sources for the Bible's wisdom is because the Bible has been the central text for our culture and so its influence pervades our culture. It's not really surprising then that you find its messages elsewhere.

1. There is a difference between instructions for CPR and sources for thinking about how to live well and rightly. The Bible isn't a book of instructions -that's such a narrow and restrictive view. It's not surprising you find it so unsatisfactory! I think of it as a treasury containing all sorts of different things - inspiration, consolation, joy, hope, sorrow, despair. There's little in the range of human experience that isn't represented there somewhere (in the form of stories and poetry). And, of course, it is part - a supremely important part - of the still-unfolding story of God's reaching out to humankind.

Are we better at living in harmony.... Beautifully expressed niminy

Now that the world is more crowded it's arguably more important that we put a lot of emphasis on living harmoniously with each other and looking after the planet.

No-one on this thread has said that sending your children to a non-faith school is wrong or inferior. They're standing up for those parents who do choose to use faith schools. Does it lead to intolerance and lack of understanding? My contention is that it shouldn't. Lack of provision of schools isn't the fault of the existing faith schools.

1. Jesus didn't take the Hebrew Scriptures literally

Jesus believed in a literal Adam and Eve. Other NT authors believed in the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. Do you believe that God drowned the whole earth bar Noah and his family?

No-one on this thread has said that sending your children to a non-faith school is wrong or inferior. They're standing up for those parents who do choose to use faith schools.

I completely understand the parents who are making the most of a system that's strongly skewed in their favour. My argument is that the system should be changed to create a more level playing field for all children.

Does it lead to intolerance and lack of understanding? My contention is that it shouldn't.

It probably shouldn't, but does it? According to some on this thread, sometimes it does. However I'd contend that you're setting the bar way, way too low. This is public money, so it should be deployed to the maximum benefit. Schools should be actively furthering tolerance and integration, not just avoiding intolerance and segregation. It's questionable whether faith schools make a net contribution to those aims, given their demographic profile - if you go to a faith school, you are statistically less likely to mix with representative numbers of children who are deprived, of a different faith or of a different race. Children are given a skewed view of their local communities.

Lack of provision of schools isn't the fault of the existing faith schools.

As I've said, there isn't necessarily a lack of provision in many places - there is an over concentration of church schools relative to the local populations in some places, which enables non-local faith parents to pick and choose between local and non-local schools, pushing out local kids in 'popular' who don't have their options. The state shouldn't have to pay for over-provision so that parents of the 'right' faith continue to have more options than other parents.

I just can't comprehend how segregating children by religion can contribute to a more integrated society when those children become adults.