Is being pubicly atheist a recent thing, especially re. collective worship?

[wanderings]

Firstly, I'm taking no sides - I had strong atheist views when I was younger, but gradually changed my mind.

There are many threads on MN about this, especially annoyance by atheist parents about collective worship in schools, and I have been wondering if it's recent that people have felt so strongly about it. I find it hard to imagine buses in the 1980s and 90s saying "there probably is no God", or parents taking their children out of assembly, or people muttering and sneering in the back row when attending baptisms (under duress): if it happened I was blissfully ignorant.

Speaking for myself, I rebelled with my heart and soul when my parents suddenly dragged me to catholic church every Sunday when I was 9. I saw the whole thing as utter nonsense, and a waste of valuable weekend time. However, I gradually changed my mind as an adult, but went CofE rather than catholic. I took the view that you did not have to take a literal view of the Bible and the church's teachings; as a child I was very literal-minded. I also love the sense of community in church.

Does anyone think it is because a generation of young adults are remembering being forced to obediently sing hymns, hear prayers from their school days, had to learn "impossibilities" such as the great flood, and are now making sure their children won't have to do the same, now that they have the right to say something which they didn't as a child?

So like this:

"Some of those questions might be: how can the views of faith groups which often have very deep roots in their local community - far deeper than most politicians, for example - how can these be heard in the decision-making process about things that will affect that community?"

Which faith groups? Which communities? What about all the people who don't adhere to that faith group?

If it's about non faith related stuff then why do their views need to be considered "as a faith group"?

What if the local faith group have views which are wildly at odds with the views of people from outside that immediate community?

Lots of groups have strong roots in the local community - should they all be listened to and if so why not frame it around "groups with strong roots in the local community" and take out the faith bit?

Lweji me too

I can understand the comfort in having beliefs which provide a context / a point / a meaning to it all, and to an extent I envy those people as I know that it leads to better mental health / generally being happier / feeling of belonging & etc.

However, you can't force yourself to believe things if you just don't. And even though I like the idea of the "happier" bit, as someone with no spiritual feelings, the routes that people use - the beliefs - well you know I just don't get it!

I reckon these days people are just more aware of all the death, destruction, hatred, rape, child abuse etc caused by religion/religious groups, so are more likely to publicly reject it.

Christians are widely regarded as irrational, weird, reactionary, paranoid, anti-science and anti-truth

With good cause. Evolution is central to our modern understanding of the world, and there you are, howling that it isn't true.

I have beliefs, but I know we are tiny, and wouldn't want to force other people to share them.

Disco but we do know the creation stories are false. It might be that some new evidence comes along in years to come which alters our thinking about inflation theory and the Big Bang, but we can say categorically that the earth was not created by a sky fairy in 7 days (or any other creation myth)

I feel quite comfortable telling my kids this is nonsense and these are stories made up when people didn't understand how things actually work.

And I respect people's rights to hold beliefs, but I don't respect the belief itself when it's demonstrable nonsense.

All the strategic consultative bodies in our borough have a 'faith ' representative , do you feel that churches / the church does not have a view?

I think the vast majority of people engage happily with the church on a community level : in my mum's village everyone turns up to the village church fete and buys and sells jam and BricABrac, here in S London all the non religious cub and scout families I know, including me, support Church Parade and put money in the collection in mutual respect for use of the church facilities. The voice of faith groups is heard loud and clear in government debates about adoption, abortion, stem cell research and End of Life rights.

The only issue I have with any of this is where the church had a protected power, e.g selection over places in state funded schools, positions in the Lords (which impacts on the outcome of legislation areas listed above) and compulsory acts of worship as part of the NC.

But if you believe in an ominpotent being Hermione, they could have fixed it up to put any evidence in for us to find - a la Douglas Adams. They could control and bend the entire universe to their will, engage us in a mass hallucination, make us think whatever they wanted.

That's the point isn't it, when you open it up to "belief" then you can believe anything. And for me, just because some beliefs have been around longer or have more followers or whatever, it doesn't make them any more, I don't know, worthy of respect than others. I'll happily put "some people believe" in front of anything that others believe, even if there's only 30 of them that believe it.

I am surprised to find this isn't universal, I thought that was the whole point behind "respecting other people's beliefs" and utilising the "some people believe" thing. I'm a bit surprised TBH. You learn something every day!

This is indeed a Christian country with only 3% of the population practising Muslims - admittedly on the rise. Atheists hate having to accede that this country is still Christian but that's just tough titties.

Nimimy, I see you consistently honouring the Lord all over mn in your thoughtful and non-judgemental and brave postings, so please ignore the haters who will always hate those who are faithful to God. Don't cast your pearls before swine

niminy "Some of those questions might be: how can the views of faith groups which often have very deep roots in their local community - far deeper than most politicians, for example - how can these be heard in the decision-making process about things that will affect that community? how can the social contribution of faith groups (for example, running community groups, social support networks, foodbanks etc) be acknowledged? should the voice of faith groups who sponsor chaplains be heard in debates about health or prisons? How can society as a whole tap into and encourage some of the good things that characterise faith groups, for example charitable giving and volunteering?"

I don't know where you live but I live in London and I can say categorically that in the 5 boroughs I've lived in, all those things are heard in decision making processes. I'm often involved in local politics and those groups always have their voices heard, are always at council meetings, community group meetings discussing everything from the London riots - in fact I spoke with priests and others who were dispatched to hotspots to try and calm the mood. The local MPs actually seem very conscious indeed of integrating all groups into these sorts of discussions.

In terms of faith groups and charity, that does make me very uncomfortable. Charity is not the domain of faith. I do the local food bank stuff via my atheist group and only because I don't have a car. I don't see that the food bank or any charity effort needs to have religion involved. As long as people with any view are getting together and co-ordinating their efforts (which we are in my area) then I don't think it matters.

Health and prisons - not sure exactly what you mean but I wouldn't want religious views entering into health policy...?

• re the car - someone in the atheist group has a car, if I could walk down the road and just drop it off, I would obviously do that, but it's too far and stuff is often too heavy.

swallowing, what an odd thing to say - many atheists would not marry in church or christen their kids.

or they christen their kids because of local education issues. oh, look where we ended up....!

Swallowing - is "shut the fuck up" a regular contribution when you engage in discussion? It's by far the most disrespectful thing I've seen on this thread - by a mile.

What the hell is an atheist group and what do you do at the meetings? Moan about that pesky 'non-existent' God and what an absolute rotter He is?

I am very discomfited at the new poster's username! What does it mean, swallowing handmaiden?

No but I'm pregnant and ragey and I cannot get my head around why a bunch of haters could find so much..well..hate in their hearts for a man who died on a cross for them. And if you don't believe that where is the harm in his message of love?

Swallow, I don't go to meetings much at all, I just linked up because of the food bank. Mostly it's sorting out charity stuff in the local area but there is an element of informing community groups and getting our voice heard just as Christians or Hindus might get their voice and view heard.

I haven't heard anyone moaning about god but I think there are a couple of people who find it helpful if they have family who dislike their views.

as you can see, Swallow, I'm happy to engage politely but tbh I'm not sure if you want to.

Blimey, you're discomfited by my username when there's AnyFucker, Eatshitderek and Fuckyouchrisandthathorse? Bizarre.

Being pregnant is no excuse.

If you love Jesus so much, then maybe show that love for your fellow humans too? You are totally out of order. From one Christian to another.

You haven't explained whatsoever why atheists would feel the need to form an alliance with one another.

Well, yes! What does it mean?

Swallowing, just read you are "pregnant and ragey".

why the rage? My parents are very religious and that is the first question they would ask - why are you raging at someone who has different beliefs than you?

..and I'm not a new poster; I have various usernames, one of which is FanOfSpam.

Swallowing "You haven't explained whatsoever why atheists would feel the need to form an alliance with one another."

the same reason people of certain religions like to form groups and so on. What needs explaining exactly? There are book groups, music groups, Christian groups - why would an atheist group need an explanation?