Is being pubicly atheist a recent thing, especially re. collective worship?

[wanderings]

Firstly, I'm taking no sides - I had strong atheist views when I was younger, but gradually changed my mind.

There are many threads on MN about this, especially annoyance by atheist parents about collective worship in schools, and I have been wondering if it's recent that people have felt so strongly about it. I find it hard to imagine buses in the 1980s and 90s saying "there probably is no God", or parents taking their children out of assembly, or people muttering and sneering in the back row when attending baptisms (under duress): if it happened I was blissfully ignorant.

Speaking for myself, I rebelled with my heart and soul when my parents suddenly dragged me to catholic church every Sunday when I was 9. I saw the whole thing as utter nonsense, and a waste of valuable weekend time. However, I gradually changed my mind as an adult, but went CofE rather than catholic. I took the view that you did not have to take a literal view of the Bible and the church's teachings; as a child I was very literal-minded. I also love the sense of community in church.

Does anyone think it is because a generation of young adults are remembering being forced to obediently sing hymns, hear prayers from their school days, had to learn "impossibilities" such as the great flood, and are now making sure their children won't have to do the same, now that they have the right to say something which they didn't as a child?

My atheist parents didn't withdraw me because they thought it would be good for me to know - and because I would have been made to seem different. The same reasons I don't withdraw my kids. Still, I'd rather it didn't happen, so I support the British Humanist Society.

It would be interesting to know what the prevalence of collective worship in schools is nowadays compared to, say, twenty or thirty years ago. Certainly at my children's school there are only two acts of worship per year, at Harvest and Advent, and the religious content of those two is pretty minimal. I, on the other hand, remember saying a prayer and singing a hymn every day at my primary school.

I wonder if the aversion to collective worship has got stronger and more widespread as people have less actual experience of church-going and worship generally. (In a way it's a bit like - though absolutely not the same as - racism, which flourishes more readily where there are few black people and where there is the greatest separation between black and white.)

As church-going and Christian belief has declined, many people will never actually have been inside a church during a service that's not a wedding. That's certainly the case with most people in my generation of my extended family (and we are all now in middle age). It's not unusual for people not to know any practising Christians at all.

That's a perfect environment for the attitudes we now see to develop. In another way it reminds me of how people used to talk about gays - they're always trying to convert you, they're always trying to get their hands on our children. I sometimes wonder if there's a fixed amount of stigma that just floats around the world. Once one group becomes un-stigmatised the stigma has to go and attach itself to another group.

On the other hand, perhaps it's the one boring/unpleasant thing about people's memories of school that they can change for their children.

It possibly reflects early stages of faith development. This handy chart www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html outlines a couple of the theories. Those atheists who are very critical of Christianity are probably in stage 2 or 3 in Fowler's terms. The only faith they have experienced has been in the earlier stages which is why they characterise faith as childish and as being all about sky fairies and spaghetti monsters. The fact that mature Christians are not in those earlier stages will be outside their frame of reference.

I withdrew myself from collective work at primary school - early 90s. Had to get parents to write a letter, they were happy to oblige.

*worship not work

greenheart- what a heap of crock. some pseudo-scientific chart written by a christian to show that christians are somehow more advanced than atheists.

Cringeworthy to read. And you call it a "handy chart"? Stuck up on the back of your fridge door to remind yourself of your superiority?

You could interpret the 4 simplified stages as

1. Childish
2. Driven by hormones
3. Adult
4. Mentally declining

Did you actually look at it, goblinhat? Because if you had, you would have seen that it's a reputable theory based on very well known and widely accepted work in developmental psychology.

You would also have seen that it can be applied 'not only to traditional religions but to those who follow alternative spiritualities and secular worldviews as well'.

But perhaps it is just more satisfying to be rude.

I'm late 40's. it's been around as long as I can remember.

I've been an atheist since about the age of 8, and resented being expected to sing hymns etc at school, but in those days it seemed that non-believers were very much in the minority, and objecting to being forced into religion at school was not met with much sympathy from staff.

The non-religious proportion of the population has grown sharply since then, however, to reach about 25% in the last census (as well as growing numbers of members of non-Christian religions, and dwindling numbers of people who are practising members of the Church of England), so I think many of us now feel we are a significant enough minority to be entitled to object to the imposition of a state religion on our children.

Society as a whole has also become more tolerant of diversity/individuality, and people aren't expected to just shut up and conform so much any more (e.g. acceptance of same-sex relationships).

I don't know if it's a more recent thing as I can't say I've paid much attention to it either way before the last 18 months, but since becoming an active Christian last year I've noticed that people who don't believe in any faith are vastly more outspoken about that fact.
Maybe it's where I live, maybe it's the type of church community I'm part of, but I don't find our voice is as 'loud' as the atheist voice.
Again that could be more to do with where I reside- we don't have slogans on our single hourly running buses here, maybe it's different in the cities.

When I was a child I attended a church school because it was the closest to my home and I sung the hymns and such but didn't really care either way, it's as a grew up I made my choices.

"Society as a whole has also become more tolerant of diversity/individuality, and people aren't expected to just shut up and conform so much any more (e.g. acceptance of same-sex relationships)."

It's interesting though that back in the dark, olden days, if a teacher was gay they would be met with suspicions that they were trying to 'get at' or 'convert' any children they came into contact with. We no longer think that, which is great. But now any teacher who is a Christian is susceptible to very similar kinds of suspicions that they are trying to 'get at' or 'convert' any children they come into contact with.

I also think it's really significant that there is less worship going on in schools now than there used to be. The amount of opposition to it (almost amounting to hysteria in some quarters) is in inverse proportion to its prevalence.

Sorry, double post.

Another significant change of attitude is that there is a widespread suspicion of Christians, who are thought to be irrational and reactionary, and their motives, which are assumed to be underhand and untrustworthy. That's a big change from the past in which Christians were viewed much more positively.

Flabbergasted that the poster who compares athiests to racists and homophobes is the one accusing another poster of being rude.

My children go to while school worship at the church once a week.

I am pretty sure the RC and Jewish schools have a fair amount of worship too. When I last checked more than 70% of primary schools in my borough have a religious affiliation. The two new large secondary schools are religious, one Jewish and one Christian.

Maybe this idea there's both much religion in schools depends on where you live.

A few miles up the road there is a state schools for the hasidic Jewish population. If religion in schools is what you're after then that should give comfort. I believe they spend a significant amount of time on their religion, both worshipping and studying.

While = whole
Both = not

niminypiminy - maybe that's because converting people to your way of thinking because it's 'the right way' is not a feature of being gay (even if some people suspected it was), but is a feature of Christianity!

I'm no historian, but I imagine this shift has happened in many civilisations and cultures. Gradually, as they become more advanced and educated and less superstitious, the people realise that gods were made up, mostly to explain away phenomena which now seem perfectly explicable.
The shift probably happens slowly because of the social hold that organised religion has over the people. And so some people carry on outwardly observing the religious behaviour. But eventually, thank goodness, people start to say "Actually, I don't believe in any of this crap!", and then lots more people say "Phew! I thought it was just me who thought it was all bollocks!"

I'm just glad to live in a place and time where I am not persecuted, tortured or considered evil for not going to church.

As for the opposition being in inverse proportion to its prevalence, I think that's perfectly natural. The more obvious it becomes that lots of people will no longer accept being brainwashed, the more furious the people who still are being brainwashed! It's a bit like smoking - faaar fewer people smoke now, but the anti-smokers are even more vociferous because it's so bloody obvious now how detrimental it is.

Many factors.
As an atheist in stage 5 on the handy chart (who actually doesn't believe that logic has 'limits'), I am, I hope, embracing and inclusive of the faith (s) of close friends, will defend anyone's right to practice religion in freedom and recognise the legacy of Christianity (and paganism and others) in our culture.

I don't fret about religion in school because a) there has never been an 'act of collective worship' in either of DC' schools and b) people can experience religious services and be enriched by the knowledge and understanding without being 'indoctrinated'. But what I object to really strongly, on principle, is that Christian collective worship is supposed to happen, by law, in state schools, on tax payers money and time, and in our children's education.

It is just wrong, democratically.

Ditto the power that the CoE has in our government: guaranteed unelected seats in the Lords, etc.

On buses: it makes me smile - a playful reminder as to what it is like to be surrounded by hoardings telling us that 'Jesus saves!'. I have never had to turn off the hob under a frying pan, wipe my hands and interrupt a conversation with a 4 year old to answer the door to someone who has disturbed me in the middle of tea time to tell me 'God probably doesn't exist'.

I suspect that many issues have provoked our defence of free speech, and what was once a polite unspoken lack of response to a complacent assumption that we all go to church, at least for the milestone events has been replaced by a ore matter of fact debate.

It will be good if it is conducted by people from all positions in the circle as an interesting dialogue, rather than an attack and defence.

"if a teacher was gay they would be met with suspicions that they were trying to 'get at' or 'convert' any children they came into contact with" - that was always pure prejudice, by people who assumed gay=paedophile. Trying to 'convert' people is not what being gay is about.

Trying to convert people is, however, a central part of most religions' missions. Many senior church figures see faith schools as a way to try to get children into the faith at an early age, and the evangelical groups who volunteer to come in and do assemblies/workshops etc, are certainly aiming to recruit new believers. The children's minister who came into my DCs' school once a fortnight to give assemblies used to distribute sweets and tell the children all about the fun stuff they could do at Sunday school.

When I was a child CofE Christianity was seen as very conventional, something your Grandparents did, something along the lines of the Women's Institute. The Vicar was treated with the sort of respect that The Doctor was, as a learned man, and officiated at the village fete. Christmas meant carols and nativity plays, not necessarily because you believed in them but because it was traditional. I think there just wasn't this questioning of whether it was true, it wasn't necessarily expected that you believe it, it was just a traditional part of the culture.

"I took the view that you did not have to take a literal view of the Bible and the church's teachings; as a child I was very literal-minded. I also love the sense of community in church.

Does anyone think it is because a generation of young adults are remembering being forced to obediently sing hymns, hear prayers from their school days, had to learn "impossibilities" such as the great flood, and are now making sure their children won't have to do the same, now that they have the right to say something which they didn't as a child?"

I suppose for me, it's simply that I don't believe in God. It's got nothing to do with the sort of things you mention, although I did go to an RC school (complete with nuns!) and get plenty of religion, I just never believed in it.

The key here as far as my experience goes is whether you are a spiritual person or not, isn't it? And I think this is just an aspect of us, of personality. Some people have a feeling or sense that there must be more to it, that there is some kind of guiding force or higher power or originator or something, and some people just don't have that feeling at all. I think it's wrong to say that non religious people are turned off it all - studies show that people who are religious are happier - I think due to a combination of feeling meaning in life and also the community aspect. So if it were a matter of "choice" - choose to believe or not, sensible people would choose to believe. But it's not a choice is it, you can't make yourself believe in something (anything) that you just don't.

So I think that's it really. Some people are "spiritual" and they tend to find a way to express that whether it's through the religion they grew up with, another mainstream denomination, something that speaks to them that is more uncommon (I have a friend who is a pagan) or something that they think of for themselves. People like my DH, who believes there is "something" but he doesn't know what, and he doesn't agree with organised religion. He is "spiritual" - he has that side, some people simply don't.

In days gone by it was the "done thing" to go to church (well and before that it was compulsory!) but as times have changed people are freer to follow the path they feel fits for them. And for many, this is a non traditional religion, a personal thing with no organised aspect to it, or simply none.

This is a good thing, it's progress that people can be how they are without fear.

Did anyone ever really think that when a large % of the population went to church every week that they all actually believed it? And that something has happened to stop people believing? If so, maybe I can understand some of the upset.But it's not true. The people who don't go - they are happier fulfilling their spirituality in a different way - or they are happy not having to go along with something that they simply do not understand and never will.

That's my view

I didn't actually compare atheists to racists and homophobes. I precisely did not say that. I drew parallels about attitudes.

I didn't use the word persecution, as I don't believe there is persecution of Christians in this country. Stigma, yes, in the same way as atheism was once (but is no more) stigmatised.

The wikipedia article on atheism gives the names of four people in the seventeenth century who were executed for being atheists. On the other hand the activities of the League of Militant Atheists were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Russian Christians between 1924 and 1940 alone; ten per cent of Russian children were members and the League produced copious propaganda aiming to convert Russians to atheism. Similar atrocities occurred during the de-Christianisation of France during the Revolutionary Period.

It's true that there is indeed persecution of atheists nowadays. This article from Christian Today documents some horrific and shocking cases. Nevertheless, such vile things are vastly outnumbered by the persecution of Christians across the world - most recently, sadly and shockingly, in the US only yesterday, where a man with a gun asked school students to stand up if they were a Christian, and then shot them.

I have to say, Blu, that I've never had Christians at the door - Jehovah's Witnesses once, but they were terribly nice, gave me a leaflet and went away. I've been interrupted far more often by people trying to sell me double glazing and other home improvements, who are far less easy to get rid of. Now that really is a pain.

As for conversion, I would say that Christians have a duty to share the good news of Christ with others. But it's God who does the conversion, not us. Telling you about something and why it's good news is not advanced mind control. And, as the testimony of people on this thread shows, it's easy enough for it not to take root, especially since it is not longer a traditional part of our culture, as laundryeverywhere says.

As for establishment, etc etc, well I've had my say on those before, but essentially I've always thought it was a mixed blessing at best.