Is being pubicly atheist a recent thing, especially re. collective worship?

[wanderings]

Firstly, I'm taking no sides - I had strong atheist views when I was younger, but gradually changed my mind.

There are many threads on MN about this, especially annoyance by atheist parents about collective worship in schools, and I have been wondering if it's recent that people have felt so strongly about it. I find it hard to imagine buses in the 1980s and 90s saying "there probably is no God", or parents taking their children out of assembly, or people muttering and sneering in the back row when attending baptisms (under duress): if it happened I was blissfully ignorant.

Speaking for myself, I rebelled with my heart and soul when my parents suddenly dragged me to catholic church every Sunday when I was 9. I saw the whole thing as utter nonsense, and a waste of valuable weekend time. However, I gradually changed my mind as an adult, but went CofE rather than catholic. I took the view that you did not have to take a literal view of the Bible and the church's teachings; as a child I was very literal-minded. I also love the sense of community in church.

Does anyone think it is because a generation of young adults are remembering being forced to obediently sing hymns, hear prayers from their school days, had to learn "impossibilities" such as the great flood, and are now making sure their children won't have to do the same, now that they have the right to say something which they didn't as a child?

So you "draw parallels" between the "attitudes" of racists and homophobes, and athiests.

And then say other people are being rude.

If you can't see why that's a bit off, then i'm not sure what to say really.

I also think it was unfortunate to compare religious people to smokers.

Just a lot of quite unhelpful and potentially offensive analogies on the thread really.

Disco, isn't there a difference between being personally rude to someone and saying something that people disagree with? I chose my analogies carefully NOT in order to imply that atheists are like racists or homophobes, but in order to a) say that anti-Christian sentiment thrives when there's relatively little actual experience of Christian worship, just as (ie this is an analogy) racism thrives when white people don't know, or live separated from black people, b) to say that the attitude that many people have towards Christians (they're out to get our children) is similar to (ie this is an analogy) the way people used to think about gays.

I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. I am pretty sure that I am not being personally rude to anyone there, though I accept I may be saying something that people don't agree with, in which case the better part is to actually argue against it rather than dismiss it as 'a bit off'.

BigDorrit, did I say the CofE as an organisation was stigmatised? No, I didn't. I repeated my position on Establishment (a mixed blessing at best, in case you didn't read it). I did say that individual Christians are stigmatised. Perhaps it would be truer to say that Christians often feel that they are stigmatised. And you may not feel that they are but it would be only just, wouldn't it, to listen to their experience, rather than simply dismissing them as 'paranoid'?

Wanderings - I actually think more people are becoming atheist after a generally Christian upbringing because there is a more clearly articulated case for the origin of the universe etc. More programmes with Brian Cox explaining things like the Big Bang than Songs of Praise. People think about these things. It is an intellectual choice, rather than a reaction to being dragged to Harvest festival.

Conversely as the world becomes so challenging in many ways, other people find religion or faith.

I actually believe that mn is not representative of society's attitude to collective worship. Mners are largely left-wing liberals who are terrified of their children worshipping a 'patriarchal' God and showing them up in Waitrose. Wildly ironic that they are far more tolerant of that misogynistic religion that prohibits female drivers and condones FGM.

I only assume that a religious person is 'getting at' my DC and trying to convert them if that is actually what is happening. There have been many great teachers, scout volunteers, friends, relatives who have not attempted persuasion of their own beliefs - and a nursery staff who on a daily basis told my DC things like 'we have rain because God is angry with us - we have sinned'.

That I was not tolerant of.

Yes, I have noticed a huge change tbh.
having had 3 dc go through a manner of schools and never hearing a complaint before, in all seriousness.
There were so many atheists at all their schools but they knew what school was about wrt collective worship and RE and if they wanted to they withdrew their dc from RE. They didn't complain that they shouldn't have to
Some parents today are too opinionated and laughable how they want certain things to be on their terms, as if they can do anything about it.

BigDorrit, I was saying it is precisely because people have so little experience of Christian worship that they are so against it.

I give up, since you're not engaging with the arguments, simply dismissing them in a 'yes you are/no you're not' kind of a way. Clearly it is impossible to actually listen to anyone you don't agree with.

Blu I too would be very unhappy if someone told my child that rain is God's punishment for sin.

But you don't mind your primary school children being taught that men and women sometimes identify as the opposite sex?

^^ that was to anyone who is anti-collective worship in schools.

I think the only worship permitted by a huge cohort of mners is that of their own children.

This is a weird thread.

Like I say, in the borough I live in, more than 70% of the schools are affiliated with a faith.
My children attend a faith school where they do a whole school worship at church once a year.
My next door neighbours are christians of the "man is the head of the household and the women wear long skirts" type.
My neighbours 3 houses both up and down the road all attend church.
On Sundays I can hear from my house 2 sets of church bells calling people to prayer.
We have parades with the brownies etc up and down the high street at religious festivals.
Up the road there is a group of christians who remove themselves from society and this is generally accepted.

This idea that christians are being pushed out / stigmatised / at risk of violence in the UK, well it doesn't hold true in the slightest in my neck of the woods.

Primary schools that is, the >70%.

I didn't look at secondaries.

This was when we were looking at schools for DD a few years back.

Is it that christianity used to be basically compulsory, a cultural norm, everyone did it because that was the thing.

And now that people feel able to do what they actually believe, and choose different faiths or none, and there are lots of other religions celebrating and worshipping, that christians feel they are somehow being done down?

It's a loss of massive privilege, a change of it from the "norm", rather than any "anti" sentiment. I suppose if you're on the other side it's hard to see that though.

Once a WEEK they do whole school worship

Not once a year.

But when people say things like 'I would be gutted if my child became a Christian' or 'if my partner became a Christian that would be a deal-breaker' that seems to me, on an individual level which is what I am talking about, evidence of ignominy and opprobrium and bad reputation (all from google's definition of stigma).

Christians are widely regarded as irrational, weird, reactionary, paranoid, anti-science and anti-truth, oppressive and privileged: it's not unreasonable that they will feel stigmatised. I think that's a separate issue from the position of the established church (which many Christians are not, anyway, members of). It's to do with a massive change in cultural attitudes, one aspect of which has to do with the opposition to worship in schools, that has occurred over the last few decades.

I guess it's one of those things. Doesn't stop me being a Christian though .

(By the way, the statements in my first paragraph both come from posts on MN.)

So now you are citing examples from your imagination and asking others to explain / refute them?

I've never heard anyone say they'd be gutted if their children became a christian, although I imagine athiests wouldn't be any more gutted than devout jews or muslims or whatever. Less, possibly, in some cases.

And surely religious belief or lack of it is a core part of who we are. Along with things like political affiliation, feelings about the environment, how we treat others, what we think of capitalism, all that core value stuff that makes us who we are. That it is hard (but not impossible) to have a relationship when the partners have different views. Would you react in the same way if you heard a devout hindu saying they couldn't have a relationship with someone from another religion, or is it just athiests who get told off if they don't want to go out with christians?

x-posts

Well you probably need to ask the posters when you see them say stuff like that.

Are you really holding up 2 posts you've seen on MN as comprehensive evidence that "Christians are widely regarded as irrational, weird, reactionary, paranoid, anti-science and anti-truth, oppressive and privileged"?

I agree with the PP that you do sound a little paranoid.

Have you nothing to say at all about my list of obvious christian stuff that is happening near me? I'd have thought that would make you very happy.

I was saying it isprecisely because people have so little experience of Christian worship that they are so against it . Rofl. No - it's because they DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD and don't think that people who don't believe in God should have to worship God!

Do you really honestly think that atheistsjust need to sit through some christian services (which they undoubtedly have done anyway at some point in their lives) and then, in spite of the fact that they think that god is no more real than the tooth fairy, they will go "Ooh actually, this is lovely/life-affirming/pretty harmless" and decide they are all in favour of Christianity after all?!

classic typo in the title

I'm an atheist, many of my friends are atheists and some have adult children. They have always been annoyed about the collective worship thing.

tbh I think it's good that they have become more willing to speak up. I feel as if the rights of many religious groups are always respected and accommodated but it's considered that atheists should just chug along with whatever is happening.

btw I thought the gunman shot people in different body parts according to their answer?

But being disappointed that your child becomes a Christian or being freaked out by your partner becoming one is pretty natural if you're an atheist. The same as many Christians would be disappointed if their previously Christian family became atheist. Or converted to Islam or Hinduism. That doesn't mean you are pouring opprobrium (good word!) on all Christians. It means that you are finding it hard that your child or partner no longer feels the same way as you, and has started to believe in something you consider untrue and potentially life-changing.

Not sure why you get to feel all insulted by it, unless someone is directly attacking you for your own beliefs.

Essentially, Christians seem to want everyone to believe in god. Whereas most atheists don't give a monkey's if you want to believe in god as long as you don't inflict it on them. Since it IS still being inflicted on them in the form of school worship, they have every right to be pissed off.

It's lovely to hear church bells, I too hear them from where I live.

Which religious festivals do the Brownies do their parades on? Are they part of an actual religious organisation parading? Or is it a community thing hung on the date of a religious festival?

I'm sorry to hear that your neighbours believe in male headship, that's theologically mistaken in my view. I'm glad, however, that you know so much about your neighbours - that's increasingly uncommon these days - and evidence of what a neighbourly street you must live in.

What kind of group of Christians removing themselves from society are they - enclosed nuns or Trappist monks?

It's quite rare in a town (I assume you're in a town or city from the usage of the word borough) to have 70% of primary schools being faith schools. I assume they are a mixture? How many are VA and VC? How many are private? How many are free schools? I can see, anyway, why you might think that there were too many. As it happens, my children go to their local community school.

Clearly you aren't going to accept at face value anything that I might say. Would it hurt you to engage?

PS I don't have kids but I went to a C of E school and that makes me realise even more that I wouldn't want children exposed to it in school. I have plenty of "knowledge" in that way. I knew I was an atheist for ages but it was a waste of a chunk of the school day to listen to that.