Is being pubicly atheist a recent thing, especially re. collective worship?

[wanderings]

Firstly, I'm taking no sides - I had strong atheist views when I was younger, but gradually changed my mind.

There are many threads on MN about this, especially annoyance by atheist parents about collective worship in schools, and I have been wondering if it's recent that people have felt so strongly about it. I find it hard to imagine buses in the 1980s and 90s saying "there probably is no God", or parents taking their children out of assembly, or people muttering and sneering in the back row when attending baptisms (under duress): if it happened I was blissfully ignorant.

Speaking for myself, I rebelled with my heart and soul when my parents suddenly dragged me to catholic church every Sunday when I was 9. I saw the whole thing as utter nonsense, and a waste of valuable weekend time. However, I gradually changed my mind as an adult, but went CofE rather than catholic. I took the view that you did not have to take a literal view of the Bible and the church's teachings; as a child I was very literal-minded. I also love the sense of community in church.

Does anyone think it is because a generation of young adults are remembering being forced to obediently sing hymns, hear prayers from their school days, had to learn "impossibilities" such as the great flood, and are now making sure their children won't have to do the same, now that they have the right to say something which they didn't as a child?

If you would like to spell out here what Islamophobic means I will gladly tell you whether or not I am.

I would hate for this country to become a Muslim one. Am I an Islamaphobe?

Well, you do seem to think the only thing standing between us and the Caliphate is compulsory collective worship in Primary school.........

Well yes they put them all in a huge crocodile and march them down to the church once a week.

Opting out of that would mean missing out on quite a lot (exciting outing down the road, hold your friend's hand, it's about an hour which is a long time to sit somewhere possibly by yourself with a teacher doing marking or whatever). Certainly the handful of non christian children all go - I just asked DD and she said no-one opts out - and I'm not surprised. I know a couple of Jewish and one Hindu child at the school.

I think the opt-out is a cop-out. Many parents don't want their children missing out on what in most (all?) schools is combined with assembly so prizegiving etc (what if that child wins something?) and in some schools is a larger and more built-in part of what they do day to day.

Swallowing you don't have to spell it out! It's there in your posts, a really visceral fear and dislike. And all this HATERS business seems not very balanced either.

You say

"I would refuse point blank to send my child to a Muslim school if this country became predominantly Muslim. But that is because Islam's hatred of women and infidels is abhorrent to me, not because I have a problem with the ethos of worship."

So you'd be entirely happy with your children going to a Muslim school and joining in the daily worship then, at the moment, as we are not a predominantly Muslim country?

The worship element is supposed to be organised separately to the community aspect so opt out is simpler. Maybe the parents were happy with their children visiting the church? Did they complain?

Huh?

What do you mean it's supposed to be separate? What is the "community" aspect?

Many religious schools, worship is a key part of the day. The key is in the name "religious". When the schools around here - RC, Jewish say Faith School they mean it! And many of the CofE schools too. Some of the schools connected to churches round here, the churches describe themselves as Evangelical and I know the schools take it all very seriously, I know children who attend them. They get a LOT of religion.

Not all areas are the same - for many of us it's not a quick prayer in the local school which is CofE by default, it is most schools are Faith Schools and they mean it. I told you the two new secondaries near me are both religious didn't I - one Jewish one Christian. Their websites are proud to announce that faith permeates their entire ethos - this is not unusual. Up the road is a Hasidic Jewish school - you think they separate out their religious activities from everything else? These are religious schools.

Maybe people are talking from their own experiences in different areas.

I'm about as Islamaphobic as you are Christphobic.

Bert, it is clear your efforts in this debate have been somewhat stifled by Ricardian and Capsium, but your sporadic appearances merely to lob some smug soundbite into the discussion are a bit daft.

It is only the eradication of Islamist extremism that stands to stave off a caliphate. Don't you know anything?

Ethos is different to worship though. People / groups can hold their own religious ethos without any requirements regarding worship. Everyone has a personal ethos.

Having collective worship separately just means the participant parts of worship are left till the end, for example, giving those opting out opportunity to leave the room early, easily.

I believe the biggest danger to our children in schools is inequality of attainment on the basis of class. If you can show evidence that praying in a state school assembly exacerbates that division then I will take your outrage seriously.

I'm not Christaphobic

I was raised as a Roman Catholic, I have churchgoers in my family. I'm a bog-standard English person and my children attend a religious CofE school.

Additionally, I live in a predominantly Christian country.

Have you heard me say

"I would refuse point blank to send my child to a Christian school"

erm no and you won't as they go to a Christian school.

And then

"But that is because Islam's hatred of women and infidels is abhorrent to me, not because I have a problem with the ethos of worship."

I do find your comments about Islam very iffy, is it just Islam you have a problem with or do other religions attract your ire as well. The RC church has a pretty dire history with women, do you feel the same about them?

I notice you also don't bother answering questions that you find a bit tricky.

And you sound very, very Angry. Maybe a different faith would offer you more peace, one with meditation maybe.

capsium are you serious?

I don't think some of you really understand how religious the religious schools in some parts of the country are.

Someone upthread mentioned free schools and wrongly thought they are not allowed to have religious criteria. They are and they do - we have religious free schools. As such they would be exempt from any rules around community (I assume).

I also like the idea that because a law says religion and everything else mustn't be mixed, that is what happens all the time everywhere There's a sort of lack of understanding of how the world works here in places.

I was looking up some local schools to find some good quotes and have this:

"Core Values

Our core values and ethos, guided by the senior Rabbis of the Orthodox Jewish community, discourage the use of online communication and internet use wherever possible. This site therefore holds only statutory and other basic information about the school. For further information about the school, please contact us."

I like it. Reminds me of the Brethren, they set their own school up in the end and of course allow no external communication at all (newspapers, radio, internet, etc etc).

I find it all fascinating really.

But, personally, inappropriate for state school settings. These are very good schools. I am sure the children are happy and do well. But, personally, I am against this segregation of children on religious lines. I don't see how it can do any good. It might not do bad, but I can't see it doing any good. Tolerance for "all" faiths in our state system and the active engagement in none seems much better. And that's not at a personal level - I believe this is the right thing to do for society.

Tolerance for "all" faiths in our state system and the active engagement in none seems much better. And that's not at a personal level - I believe this is the right thing to do for society.

This.

The rest of the thread has been giving me a headache.

Don't mean to single that school out BTW there's plenty more where that came from around here!

And it's fine right, because that's the way it is.

I want to change the way it is in state schools, I don't mind in any way shape or form people exercising whatever religion they like in their homes, own places of worship & etc. If I go into a church I expect to sing hymns and say prayers. If I go to a school assembly, not so much. (There is quite a good bit of praise and worship, also thanking, I think we thanked God with a song last time IIRC, and for something innocuous (the nice day?) some people here would be dead chuffed. All the littles standing up and bowing their heads with their hands together prayer style, then belting out about how Jesus loves us all. No-one actually joined in with a guitar but it was a close call).

Not sure why I put "" around all in that post but glad someone appreciated the gist!

Yes it is a bit headache inducing, isn't it.

Disco bottom line is, is that if I were seriously unhappy with any aspect schools provision in a whole area I would actually be prepared move or home school.

I have moved my DC from a preschool I was unhappy with before. I would discuss my concerns with the school first though, to check my concerns were not unfounded. I have also campaigned for a few changes (unrelated to religious worship) at one of my DC's school and they did change the way things were done. So I do not say the above lightly.

"I believe the biggest danger to our children in schools is inequality of attainment on the basis of class. If you can show evidence that praying in a state school assembly exacerbates that division......."

I agree. That's not what this thread's about though,

However, faith schools certainly do exacerbate that division. I think that might be another thread.

I grew up here, my parents live here, my in laws live here, my DH siblings all live here, my friends live here. I go into the shops and I know people who work there, I've had all sorts of times good and bad here. My memories are all here, my commute is easy from here, the children's friends are here, I get on with my neighbours & etc and so on....

You tell me that I should move.

That just about sums it up doesn't it.

Interestingly, there is a lot of focus on individual actions on this thread. If you don't like it you should leave the area. If you don't like your Muslim child praying to Jesus you must act to remove them (and potentially make them the odd one out). And maybe leave the country area as well.

I come at it from a societal perspective. I don't think all this segregation and in some areas religious fundamentalism (in the sense it actually means rather than how it is commonly used in the media) is good for society. It makes no odds to me. I went to a convent school. BUT it really matters to a not inconsiderable number of people and they have an extremely valid point. I would rather my children did not have worship in school. And at a societal level, it makes no sense. It's there because of history. That doesn't mean it's a good thing, and as it's all freed up and more and more schools of different flavours open, children will be mixing less and less with those of other faiths and I just don't feel this is a good thing. We should be reversing it, not increasing it.

This individualism point is interesting.

Does religious belief go hand in hand with conservatism with a small c?
That it is down to each individual to sort things out for themselves and no-one will or should help?

Just thinking about the US and obviously they are a highly Christian country, and strong cultural believers in you have to do it yourself why should anyone help.

The Christian ideal talks about Charity, but in practice people will do for charity the things that they see as worthwhile, the people or whatever that they see as deserving of help. The flipside to this is no help for the "undeserving".

The approach on this thread from the pro-worship people could be encapsulated in the phrase "I'm alright Jack" and the focus on individual action rather than wider or society is eye-opening.

Interesting.

What can I say, Disco? I moved away from where I grew up & my family. DH's family comes from a different part of the country to mine and we don't live near them either. Moving might not be such a big thing to me, I've moved several times in my lifetime.

Schools can be inclusive and non discrimatory under the existing law. If they aren't this is to do with do with bad implementation of the law, not the law itself.

I'm mildly disgruntled about the religious worship in my children's school, at most.

It's the principle of it that gets my goat, and the fact that the people who have a major problem with it, are right, as far as I'm concerned. It's an across society thing, not a "it's all about me" thing.

Like I say, I find the assumptions around motivations here interesting.

It's a bit like Maggie's "no such thing as society" stuff. Yes there is such a thing as society and increasing religious segregation from age 4 is not good. In my opinion. What individuals do is beside the point. It's the whole set-up that's wrong.

"Schools can be inclusive and non discrimatory under the existing law."

No they can't. Because it is automatically not inclusive if a child has to be opted out of part of assembly. However tactfully and unobtrusively it's done. You are discriminating against non Christian children. By definition.

Disco I believe the Christian idea of charity is to simply help, whether people are 'deserving' or not.

Accepting we all have faults and exercising forgiveness, and not being judgemental of others is part of Christian belief too.

So why, as a Christian, would I stop to consider how deserving someone is before I offered my help? If I was continually offering one form of help and it was not really helping I might review how useful my form of help was, though.

Again, an individual perspective.

I was exploring the idea and raised the US as an example of a very religious nation where the culture was very conservative (generally) and for sure the more religious areas coincide with the higher levels of conservatism.

So a point about a society is met with the experience of an individual, and that experience is presented as an argument to presumably refute the premise of an idea about a group or groups or a whole society.

I do think there is something there which is interesting and illuminating for me personally. Maybe a lot of this is actually to do with individualism vs socialism (I assume that's the word! I mean not "the labour party" but the concept of thinking about society rather than the self).

societism?

dunno.

I know what I mean anyway!