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Original poster

Is being pubicly atheist a recent thing, especially re. collective worship?

691 replies

wanderings · 01/10/2015 15:34

Firstly, I'm taking no sides - I had strong atheist views when I was younger, but gradually changed my mind.

There are many threads on MN about this, especially annoyance by atheist parents about collective worship in schools, and I have been wondering if it's recent that people have felt so strongly about it. I find it hard to imagine buses in the 1980s and 90s saying "there probably is no God", or parents taking their children out of assembly, or people muttering and sneering in the back row when attending baptisms (under duress): if it happened I was blissfully ignorant.

Speaking for myself, I rebelled with my heart and soul when my parents suddenly dragged me to catholic church every Sunday when I was 9. I saw the whole thing as utter nonsense, and a waste of valuable weekend time. However, I gradually changed my mind as an adult, but went CofE rather than catholic. I took the view that you did not have to take a literal view of the Bible and the church's teachings; as a child I was very literal-minded. I also love the sense of community in church.

Does anyone think it is because a generation of young adults are remembering being forced to obediently sing hymns, hear prayers from their school days, had to learn "impossibilities" such as the great flood, and are now making sure their children won't have to do the same, now that they have the right to say something which they didn't as a child?

OP posts:
redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:06

why is it more justified to remove provision for Christian worship, which parents can opt their children out of?

I'll leave that for you to figure out.

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:07

This is how people make plans. You don't "have faith" that it will be hot in Greece in July, you know that based on all the evidence it's extremely likely that it will be.

Don't kid yourself. It is based on as much faith since weather is not entirely predictable.

redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:08

I'll add that this conversation is a good answer to the OP's question (why are people so against school worship? well, attitudes like the one you see here).

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:08

I'll leave that for you to figure out

I cannot see your individual campaign going far based on this...

BigDorrit · 07/10/2015 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 07/10/2015 15:11

"The question was why you are demanding scientific evidence to settle a question which would appear to be outside the remit of science."

Because nothing is outside the remit of science. There is, of course, stuff we don't know yet, and there is always the possibility that God's one of those things. But there is nothing which cannot be subject to the scientific method.

You think there is, and you make your choices and decisions based on that. But there isn't.

redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:11

Don't kid yourself. It is based on as much faith since weather is not entirely predictable.

what month is it? Don't by a winter coat then.

You are right. there is a chance that it might snow in greece in july. but what you call faith other people call probability. they are not the same.

if you don't think so, I will happily make a bet with you that it will snow in the greek islands in july. let's set odds at 50-50.

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:12

but I'm just as entitled to say that it's bollocks!

...equally without evidence...

redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:13

I cannot see your individual campaign going far based on this...

it's been explained ad nauseum. I don't want to keep repeating myself.

BigDorrit · 07/10/2015 15:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:15

red the difference with probability is that a bet based on it can happen within a lifetime...there is a time set for a singular result.

When do you call time on your bets regarding the existence of God?

BigDorrit · 07/10/2015 15:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 07/10/2015 15:18

"When do you call time on your bets regarding the existence of God?"

Never. He can reveal himself to me whenever he likes.

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:19

"What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence"

I'm not stopping you. Dismiss to your hearts content but it does not help in the quest for knowledge. If you dismiss everything, before evidence has been collected, you have nothing. You have to be able to hold onto an idea to even begin to know what evidence for it would look like.

BertrandRussell · 07/10/2015 15:19

But it remains beyond outrageous that children have to pretend to believe in him to take a full part.in the life of a state funded non faith school.

redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:21

When do you call time on your bets regarding the existence of God?

yes, that is the distinction between the two ideas.

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:23

But it remains beyond outrageous that children have to pretend to believe in him to take a full part.in the life of a state funded non faith school.

They don't, as the law stands.

redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:24

It remains outrageous that the CofE has special privileges in our society.

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:25

Never. He can reveal himself to me whenever he likes.

I hope that you will acknowledge Him.

capsium · 07/10/2015 15:27

red just being outraged does not get you very far.

BigDorrit · 07/10/2015 15:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:29

They don't, as the law stands.

they have to partake in worshipping despite stating they don't believe in him. Or else, leave the assembly, thus being unable to take part fully in an official activity at school.

I think I am done with capsium. Either you can't see the CofE privilege, or you can and are happy with it. in the former case, it's so apparent and has been explained repeatedly to you that I can't add to it. in the latter, I would regard that as you willingly accepting a morally appalling position, which I also can't help.

Ricardian · 07/10/2015 15:30

What other purely faith based things do you have to nominally believe in in order to take part fully in a state funded institution?

Don't be so dramatic. What was it in mainstream schools that I, as a fully formed atheist from an atheist family, couldn't access? I can sing the nice songs without having to believe their content just as I can sing along at a Bruce Springsteen concert without having to have been born in New Jersey.

Ricardian · 07/10/2015 15:32

they have to partake in worshipping despite stating they don't believe in him

So what? I don't particularly care who wins in football matches, but on the odd occasions I've attended them I've been happy to cheer in the appropriate places.

redstrawberry10 · 07/10/2015 15:36

So what? I don't particularly care who wins in football matches, but on the odd occasions I've attended them I've been happy to cheer in the appropriate places.

By all means, we should change any law that makes attendance at football matches mandatory. They also make you cheer for a specific team? That law has to go too!

I can sing along at a Bruce Springsteen concert without having to have been born in New Jersey.

you have to attend Bruce Springsteen concerts as well here? I have so much to learn about English laws...