What I don't understand about prayer

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I am an occasional church goer with a wavering faith and limited understanding.

Last Sunday, in church, we were asked to pray for the refugees. Obviously, they are in desperate need of help. The bit I don't understand is why I (we) need to tell God that. Surely an almighty God can see it already. I understand bringing an ill member of the congregation to God in prayer, but how can he have missed this one?

But he doesn't understand that the reason he's where he is is because he has not genuinely chosen to be with God, he just wants to stop his own suffering.

That's something you've made up from your own ideas, but the problem with that is it's not in context with the rest of what Jesus said, or the rest of the bible for that matter. 1 John 5:11-12 says “God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”

We're told "it is appointed unto man to die once, and then the judgement" we are not told to take it easy because we can keep changing our minds even after death. Nowhere does the bible suggest that, quite the reverse. We are told repeatedly to take it really seriously, and to choose carefully. 1 Corinthians 6:9 tells us clearly "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?" and since we are all wrongdoers then that means EVERYONE. But God doesn't leave is there with a problem, He gives us the solution should we accept it.

There is a real hell and God won't accept sinners into his kingdom. We are told "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life" (Romans 6:23).

The Bible says: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

But it is only a choice ie. made in faith, if they have no proof. Sending them proof would defeat that which is why his request is refused.

His request was refused because they already had plenty of proof, yet weren't believing any of it. There isn't any greater proof that jesus standing before you in human form, is there? Yet people witnessed it and still refused to accept it.

coffee I sympathise. Sometimes it feels like the phone line is dead. I can't offer any great solution I'm afraid. All I can say is that for me that is not always so. I guess you may need to rethink what you imagine God's response would look/sound/feel like. Maybe you can't hear him because you're listening for the wrong kind of thing?

sbga I didn't make it up, there's no need to be rude. It's how I read that passage. If you want to maintain that your reading of the bible is the only right one that is your prerogative and I will bow out.

But just out of interest what do you think happens to people who die never having heard the gospel (and are therefore unlucky enough not to have been able to choose God)?

coffeetastes.... I never got a reply from God though so gave up. So, my question is... did god not want a relationship with me then? I was communicating but getting nothing back!

Yes He very much wants a relationship with you. If you get a chance this afternoon, google and read Psalm 139. God says that he knows where we aren what we are doing, and even what we are thinking before a word is on our tongue. It asks where we can go from His spirit because if we go up to the sky he is there, if we go down to the seabed he is there, from dawn til dusk, God is there.

It speaks of how God watched you grow in the womb and knows every inch of you, inside and out. It speaks of how God knows the day you would be born and the day you will die, and how that he thinks so many thoughts about YOU that if you counted them, they would outnumber the sand.

Have you ever been to the beach and felt like you brought back half the sand in your car? If you tried to count every grain you'd lose track. And thats just off your shoes in the car. Think how much more sand the whole world carries? And yet God's thoughts to you outnumber the grains of sand.

The bible says that God wants all men to be saved, and that includes Coffeetastes, whoever you are behind your MN username.

Can I ask what would have made you FEEL as if God responded to you? Only it reminds me of a joke about the man who was in the flood and yelled out to God for help. His neighbour invited him to hop into his boat but the man declined because God was going to help, thank you very much! Later the helicopter found the man hanging onto his roof calling out toGod to save him, and dropped a rope. The man signalled for the helicopter to get out of the way because God was going to help, thank you very much! The point is that God doesn't always respond in the exact way we're looking for.

God promises "if you seek me you shall find me" and the best way to get to know about God is to read his book to us. I would recommend you start with the New testament because it's easier to understand. It would also be worth considering a church but I would be careful with that; a temptation is to go and be taught anything by anyone without checking for yourself that they're right.

The other thing worth remembering that that FEELINGS come after FACTS. By that I mean the fact is God wants a relationship with you, because He says He does, but your feelings may fear rejection and tell you it can't possibly be true. Sometimes people's feelings tell them they should feel guilty that they need a short break from the kids, a few hours even, but that doesn't change the fact that they'd benefit from even a little break when they're really exhausted and worn down. the order it should be in is FACT - FAITH - FEELINGS, not FEELINGS - FAITH - FACT!

Hope that makes sense.

I always hope in the possibility that people can choose the things of God, the things that Jesus stood for, even though they may not use the same (religious) language.

sbga I didn't make it up, there's no need to be rude. It's how I read that passage. If you want to maintain that your reading of the bible is the only right one that is your prerogative and I will bow out.

No please don't bow out! I apologise if you took it to be rude, it wasn't meant that way at all. The truth is that it's easy for a person to see what a person want's to, but then disregard the rest of the message. If you tell me its what you guess or reckon must be, then surely you're open to the idea there's an alternative explanation to your surmising? That's all I was trying to point out, so don't feel you need to bow out.

But just out of interest what do you think happens to people who die never having heard the gospel (and are therefore unlucky enough not to have been able to choose God)?

Romans 1 tells us in verse 19: "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

God has made it plain to people.
God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature: ever had the overwhelming gratitude that someone has given you a favour you don;t deserve? That is God's divine nature. Have you ever heard of a WOW! moment that is almost unbelievable? That could be His eternal power. The point is, the signs are given to us all around us, and if we are open to Him then he responds further to that, and reveals more of himself (seek and you shall find).

But the verses don't end there. We're told in verse 21: "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."

It is also possible to refuse to see what God shows us, and attribute his divine power to something else instead. We can choose to believe in Him or something else. Everyone believes in something, even if its that there is nothing to believe in!

Whether a Christian believes a person can make the decision to fully accept Christ after death and thus obtain salvation, depends on which Doctrine they accept. To the best of my knowledge, belief in this is derived from the OT tradition of praying for the dead, as described in Maccabees (which is not included in some Bibles). So then we get onto discussions about Sola Scriptura, tradition, etc.

The point of unity that I would take, though, is that if a person wants to be at one with God, if they want (Christian) salvation, they need to be genuinely seeking Him. Which includes prayer, finding out as much about Him as they can, studying the Bible, hearing Christ preached, worshipping Him and living their lives by Him.

Capsicum: re your post "I always hope in the possibility that people can choose the things of God, the things that Jesus stood for, even though they may not use the same (religious) language."????You're hoping in the wrong idea if you want to follow what Jesus clearly said "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me"????Hoping all roads (of religion) lead up the same mountain to God contravene all of the bible. There is not a single passage suggesting this, but many that show otherwise.

Maccabees is not included for good reason. ????Better to look at what the bible actually says, not various extras that contravene it and aren't included within it.

SGBA if a person agrees with Christ, stand for the things He does, they are the same in that respect, at one. What language a person uses and understands, what manner of expression, is not the important thing, it is rather that the essential part of them is the same as Christ, at one with Him.

But as a Christian SGBA don't you think that as well as worshipping God etc one needs to follow Christ to be at one with God in the next life? You haven't answered my question about those who have the misfortune never to heard the gospel.

if a person agrees with Christ, stand for the things He does, they are the same in that respect, at one.

If a person agrees with Christ they will surely agree that Christ is THE way THE truth and THE life, just like he said?

What language a person uses and understands, what manner of expression, is not the important thing

We aren't talking about language or expression, are we?

You can follow Christ's teaching as an atheist without knowing it, but that doesn't make you any more likely to enter the kingdom of heaven. The bible is clear about that.

Wee are told in 1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

If you back up a bit you will see the context is speaking about the one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

But as a Christian SGBA don't you think that as well as worshipping God etc one needs to follow Christ to be at one with God in the next life?

That's a really good question and as you might expect, there's a really clear answer to that in the bible.

For believers, the next life is not just about being saved, it is about being accountable for how you lived in your time on this earth. Some people confuse those verses with salvation, and think you have to earn it (eternal life). But you can't. What you CAN earn are rewards and are held accountable for choices you make, either for Jesus, or against Him. Being saved doesn't mean you're perfect and you still continue to make mistakes, but the idea is that the more time spent in the word and asking God to change you, the more Christ-like you become, both to be "in relationship" with him rather than "out of relationship", and to please Him and bring Him glory.

Also, placed like Hebrews are clear about how God punishes his children (believers) when they disobey, holding them accountable in this life as well as the next. He says he chastens those he loves, like a good father. Christians are more accountable with their actions than non-believers because there is stricter judgement for "those who know to do good, but do it not" because it is counted as sin (James 4:17).

You haven't answered my question about those who have the misfortune never to heard the gospel.

Yes I did! At great length actually. See my post dated Sat-19-Sep-15 15:25:16

If a person agrees with Christ they will surely agree that Christ is THE way THE truth and THE life, just like he said?

I would not disagree with this but can appreciate how (hyperthetically) something could be lost in translation if somebody was not familiar with the religious language or if religious preaching represented to them, personally, something different from what Christ actually stood for.

You quoted Romans 1:19, about how God can be seen in all of His creation, how do you think this knowledge might be expressed by someone who Has not heard Christ preached from within the Christian tradition but who can appreciate God (what Christ stands for), on some level, from their own experiences?

Hmm. Thanks SBGA. Either you are deliberately misunderstanding my questions or I am expressing them badly, but neither that post (which I had read), not your post at 17.45 answer the questions for me.
I think caps understands what I'm driving at, maybe you'll answer her question.

Dora thanks for replying. Maybe you can't hear him because you're listening for the wrong kind of thing?

I was listening for a feeling really. A feeling that I wasn't alone I guess, that God really was within me. I never felt it though, and I spent years trying.
I guess I was a bit pissed off because I house shared with a born again Christian who wasn't even looking for god when god spoke to him!
It made me feel even more crap... knowing that even god didn't want to be my friend.

Prayer is complex and personal. As hopefully a helpful example I would pray for deeper understanding of their situation, strength to be supportive and increased tolerance.

SGBA thank you too for replying. Can I ask what would have made you FEEL as if God responded to you?.
Well, like I said to Dora, I kind of expected a feeling of not being alone. But nothing ever changed.
I have read the bible, or some of it... The old testament was a bit like reading a horror story so I gave up! I know realise why they stuck with the new testament Sunday school!
Also, the problem I have with the bible is that it wasn't written whilst jesus was actually alive so it's stories that have passed down orally, and we all know what happens during Chinese whispers. I suppose that accounts for all the contradictory bits in it. Also, why did they leave some bits out?
Sorry! Lots of questions :)

The Bible tells us that we are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). It tells us that there is no-one righteous, and it tells us that God is, by contrast, completely pure and holy.

Would it be justice to say that those who did not hear of Christ are somehow excluded from the righteous judgment of God upon them for their sin? If that is so, then why the Jesus need to die?

Sometimes people ask this question with the motive to act as a diversion rather than a sincere desire to get an answer.

Does the question, however it is answered, change whether or not Christianity is true? No, it doesn’t. If God exists and has revealed himself to us, and if Christ is the only way to God, then the question may puzzle us, but won’t change the truth of the Christian message.

Those who died in faith looking forward to the Messiah were justified before God. We see this in Romans 4:1-5 where Abraham was justified by faith even though he did not know the Messiah.

Romans 10:17 reads, “faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ”.

Romans 2:15 says “The requirements of the law are written on their hearts” which, if you add to Romans 1 where we are told “they are without excuse”, we see that everyone has a God-given knowledge and a moral compass.

So it therefore isn’t true that “those who have never heard” really have no idea of God’s existence or their moral responsibilities. Those who have never heard have heard “something” and do have access to some key information about God. They know that God exists, and that there is a moral law standard, and that they have broken this standard.

In 2 Peter 3:9 we see God is patient… not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance. However, not all will.

Often times those who have never heard have responded to God’s general revelation and are later visited by Christian missionaries. The bible records a story such as this in a man called Cornelius. He knew about God and sincerely wanted to know more, and then came into contact with Peter who told him in Acts 10 all about Jesus.

Remember that our condemnation is because we are sinners and not because we haven’t head the gospel or because we rejected it. And the bible tells us that God’s wrath is revealed against everyone who suppresses his truth through creation. The sense of one not measuring up to a standard is universal. There is no culture where people feel they have never failed or transgressed. It is evident within them.

God is just in that he provides a way of salvation through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, for those who accept him. But God is also just in that the unrepentant will not go unpunished.

We know that God will deal fairly with those who have not received a direct presentation of the gospel, just as he will deal fairly with those who have. This is not any sort of theology of “all roads lead to God” because the bible is clear there are false gods and not all roads lead to God.

People in the Old Testament of the bible didn’t know about Jesus or have a gospel to reject, but they knew there would be a messiah and their faith was in God and they responded accordingly. They looked forward believing what God said was true. Hebrews says their faith was credited to them as righteousness. And now our faith is credited to us as righteousness; not of our own works, but of the work Christ did at the cross as we look backwards.

Although it might be possible for someone to be saved without even knowing Jesus’ name or the gospel, it is isn’t likely to occur in many instances, so remains important that people continue to share the “good news.” Most people of other religions have actively chosen to walk away from God and follow that (false) religion, having turned their back on God.

John had a revelation that all 4 corners of the earth, every tribe of every nation, were represented before God, having been exposed to knowledge of him. Finding people who either haven’t heard, or have no way of coming across the message, in this modern day, is much less likely. If a person in some remote tribal land is open to God, you can bet your bottom dollar he will send someone to give them more insight.

Titus says the grace of God has appeared to all men, not some, but ALL. It is there for everyone to apprehend if they will listen. Anyone who have heard the gospel and rejected it, remains accountable for that final choice, for eternity.

www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm

www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

We know that God will deal fairly with those who have not received a direct presentation of the gospel, just as he will deal fairly with those who have. This is not any sort of theology of “all roads lead to God” because the bible is clear there are false gods and not all roads lead to God.

Although it might be possible for someone to be saved without even knowing Jesus’ name or the gospel, it is isn’t likely to occur in many instances, so remains important that people continue to share the “good news.” Most people of other religions have actively chosen to walk away from God and follow that (false) religion, having turned their back on God.

MNerAnon & SGBA So there is room for hope, then? No matter how unlikely people may view the possibility we can still hope. Hope is very important as Hebrews 11:1 says,

"11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (KJV)

Not that I think Christians don't need to "share the good news", or anything like that, but more that this kind of hope is somehow integral to appreciating His love and mercy.

DORA, I am disappointed you think that with all I had written, I was deliberately misunderstanding your question! I would not have bothered wasting my time on all that typing if I had not considered it a good enough reply. However, as far as I understand it, from you you say you consider Capsium's question to mirror your own, so if I answer that then you will be happy. So I will do my best.

There is already a comprehensive reply from yesterday and so I won;t repeat what's already been said to answer that question. I will just add some points to consider though.

One is that the bible doesn't contradict itself on any level. If there is an apparent contradiction then it is not taken in context somewhere along the way. That is not a criticism, just that people pass on a form of chinese whispers about the bible without actually studying it out for themselves. The bible contradicting itself is one such chinese whisper.

So the bible consistently says there is ONE GOD, and all others are false religions. You can't follow a false God and then be accepted by God, because we have already seen in Romans that He says they are "without excuse." remember When Adam and Eve were the only people in the garden of Eden? That was 100% of the world's population believing in him! The same can be said for Noah and his family after the flood. They all passed their knowledge and experience down the generations, but not all followed it. Some added in their own (false) gods, or even didn't bother at all. Yet some were faithful and kept to the original message, and followed God. Even to this day there are remote tribes who have never picked up a bible, but who still recount a story of the flood. In fact, it has been recounted my missionaries that they have stumbled upon groups of people who already believe in God and are delighted to hear the rest of the biblical message.

The bible says that if anyone seeks God he will reveal himself to them. God is big enough to send someone into the most remote places on earth, or to move tribe members away into the path of someone who can give them more information.

What the bible DOESN'T say is that all roads lead to Rome, because they don't. The 10 commandments includes having no other gods, the gospels talk of people adding to the gospel, and thereby nullifying it. If you nullify something you render it useless. If you have a useless gospel you might as well worship sliced bread, it will get you nowhere, and you will be without excuse.

God is clear, you can't follow any (false) religion to get to him. So that means following Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam religions, won't lead you to God. The end of the bible warns not to add to the words within it, and the word of the bible precedes these other religions, like Islam for example, which came some 700 years after.

So, God promises "if you seek me you shall find me." He makes it clear there is evidence of God all around us, that He desires all men to be saved, but we also know not all will be (through their own choice).

Quite how God arranged for people to learn more of Him, is up to Him. But even then the bible says in Isiah 59 :Behold, the Lord's hand is not shorted that He cannot save."

So Capsium, if you're saying it doesn't matter what you believe, then you are going directly against everything written in the bible, by God for us. I hope that answers your question Dora.

SGBA I am not saying it doesn't matter what we believe, at all.

The point I am attempting to make is that people have different kinds of Christian belief, knowledge and experience of God, some of which may even be pre-cognitive / pre- verbal. (Like when John the Bapist recognised Jesus and jumped for joy when they were both still in the womb). This might look different to the Christian belief of someone who has spent years worshipping at a particular church.

Regarding all roads leading to Rome, I am not a Roman Catholic. I do however think church unity is important (as stressed in Ephesians 4) and also think there is much to love within the Roman Catholic denomination, although I do not worship as a RC.

So I can still hope in the possibility that others can find salvation, regardless of which particular church / denomination they do or don't belong to.

Coffee...
"I kind of expected a feeling of not being alone. But nothing ever changed."

It sounds like you were putting your feelings before the facts and faith then. You felt alone, and your feelings overruled the fact that you aren't alone. It can be a little dangerous to ride on feelings when it comes to faith, because feelings can change like the wind. They are also not always reliable, but the facts (of God) always are.

If you put your faith in your feelings, then you will be tossed about all over the place. It can be really difficult to take that leap of faith to grab hold of the facts; God exists, God loves you, God wants you, and God is very much with you everywhere you go. There is nothing you can do that is too bad for him to forgive. You are very precious to Him.

I have read the bible, or some of it... The old testament was a bit like reading a horror story so I gave up! I know realise why they stuck with the new testament Sunday school!

Most people are directed to the New testament because it is easier to digest. Even the New testament speaks of the "milk" of the word! However, I think some people would read today's newspaper's and think most of it would make a good horror story. The world can be quite a difficult place with a lot of problems. It should be of no surprise that it was no different in bible times. Humans and history just keep on repeating! It can be hard to digest the meaning and interpretations of the old testament, and it is often considered the "meat" of the word, rather than the more easily digested milk. It would be especially hard without someone you can put your valid questions to, as you go. Although there are plenty of really good websites with in-depth study material that can help. It's important to always ask God for wisdom as you read, and keep coming back to the bible over man's word to be on the safe side.

Also, the problem I have with the bible is that it wasn't written whilst jesus was actually alive so it's stories that have passed down orally, and we all know what happens during Chinese whispers.

I don't know how old you are, coffee, but I can imagine you're old enough to have some very "certain" core memories in your own life, memories that you know for sure you could write about with reasonable accuracy all these years later. And that's just you, without being inspired by the hand of God!

Similarly, I wonder if you feel the same way about historical accounts of the second world war? Some of the accounts were written 30 years after Jesus died, but the war second world war is much further back than that, yet people readily accept what is recounted by people who were part of it. I think it is safe to say that when you encounter something life-changing, you don't easily forget. Plus there is the God-inspired aspect that people seem to want to overlook.

The bible is full of prophesies, all of which are 100% accurate. The archaeological record is accurate, the historical account of leaders and kings are also accurate with secular historians. When you consider that the book was written by a lot of different authors, many of whom never met, but all of whom complement each other. Furthermore, the modern bible is remarkable accurate compared to the original dead sea scrolls found more recently.

I suppose that accounts for all the contradictory bits in it.

It's a common misconception that the bible has contradictory bits in it, but I am interested in which ones you may be speaking about, or are you referring to the general urban myth?

Also, why did they leave some bits out?
I assume you mean the Maccabees and other books in the Apocrypha? They were added in the 1500's by the catholic church and were not in the Hebrew language, didn't claim to be inspired, don't tally with anything else (the rest of the bible has cross references within it, and many old testament scripture was referred to by Jesus, but none of the Apocrypha), they contradict themselves and the bible, and in sort, there is no authenticity and no scholar in their right mind would include it!

If you are referring to missing out other information then please let me know what you refer to. Hope that helps!

Capsium, I am relieved to hear it, it seemed you were trying to say it doesn't matter what people believe so long as they believe something!

As for unity in the church, I agree but with limitations. I would never step foot inside a church that claims Jesus did not die for us or something fundamentally inaccurate that would nullify the gospel.

There is one thing allowing everyone to decide whether they want to drink wine at communion, and another thing to place yourself under false teaching. Jesus warned about wolves in sheeps clothing and said to beware of false prophets, and I believe that a person should seek a sound bible-teaching church to place themselves under the teaching of. Even then, the bible always has the final say over man, if you see what I mean. But yes, other than that, unity is great.

SGBA I also think Bible study is important. However the Bible is a (set of) complex book(s) which can take lifetimes of study. There are historical accounts, metaphors, imagery, poetry, contextual interpretations all be appreciated and understood. Interpretations, amongst believers, also vary. There are also various church traditions and charismatic experiences, added into the mix of how Christ's message is understood. So there is still much mystery and wonder, within the Christian Faith, for me.