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Philosophy/religion

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What I don't understand about prayer

100 replies

OrderofWork · 18/09/2015 22:20

I am an occasional church goer with a wavering faith and limited understanding.

Last Sunday, in church, we were asked to pray for the refugees. Obviously, they are in desperate need of help. The bit I don't understand is why I (we) need to tell God that. Surely an almighty God can see it already. I understand bringing an ill member of the congregation to God in prayer, but how can he have missed this one?

OP posts:
BoskyCat · 19/09/2015 09:05

Well OP explained she has wavering faith. So this conversation is useful when people of faith and no faith talk about what prayer might be for.

I think OP's point is extremely valid - god does not need congregations to point out suffering to him and ask him to stop it. According to Christian doctrine, a) he knows anyway and b) he's all-powerful so could stop it if he wanted. So prayer must serve another function. It's a very interesting thing to discuss, not just in terms of faith but also in terms of human psychology for all of us.

AmazeMe · 19/09/2015 09:12

But yes, it's interesting from the point of view of what function it serves, absolutely. Even as a child brought up in a devoutly religious family in a devout country, I was frankly puzzled by the emphasis on continual 'worship' of an all-powerful being who hardly needed reassurance about his own centrality to creation. The requesting element of prayer makes more obvious psychological sense, but then we get back into not even a sparrow falling without divine knowledge. Though of course the sparrow still falls, apparently...

vdbfamily · 19/09/2015 09:25

It is an interesting question about whether Christians care more about Christians than others. I have been trying to think how to explain it. Of course when praying, Christians don't exclude non-Christians. If anything,they probably spend more time praying for non-Christians. However,many of the currently displaced peoples around the world are fleeing because of their Christian faith.It is estimated that more than 40% of Syrias Christians have fled.
My experience of Christian family is that I can travel anywhere in the world,turn up a church,be offered hospitality and in some instances accommodation and be treated by those people as if they have known and loved me all my life.Therefore, whilst I feel compassion for anyone that I see on the news who is suffering, when their suffering is caused because they follow the same Jesus as I do, I feel more than that because it is our shared belief that has got them into that situation. I don't really know how to explain it but maybe it's a bit like if you watch the news about a climber who has fallen to their death or a fisherman who has drowned, we would all be horrified,but any climbers or fishermen watching the news would hear the news with more understanding and feeling.

SBGA · 19/09/2015 09:39

OP, you ask a really valid question I think most believers and unbelievers ask.

We pray because the word of God (bible) tells us over and over that we should. Anything that God bothers to say once should be taken note of, but anything that God says repeatedly more so. He obviously really wants to get the message of communicating with him across, loud and clear! In the same way that we communicate with our partners, we should communicate with God to deepen the relationship. We don't expect a great relationship if one person refuses to talk to his partner, but we expect to feel closeness and a sense of oneness if we communicate really well and really often - and so it is with God. Any parent with children living away know the joy of picking up the phone and hearing from your dearest. God is just the same.

Jesus himself prayed a lot and is an example of reasons to pray. God loves to hear from us! Remember he prayed that God would pass the cup of suffering from his lips, and yet he still suffered. Sometimes we pray that God will stop our suffering and we find things improve, but other times things don't. We know that Jesus had to suffer to go to the cross, and we know that God's plan was to offer that sacrifice for all sins so we don't have to pay our own sin-debt, but we don't always know what God's plan is in this life and so sometimes it doesn't make sense to us.

With regard to refuges, the tragedy of these people suffering are due to the wickedness of their fellow-man. God has a plan for dealing with wickedness. None of us are perfect, we all have our faults, but we often see it as faults to differing degrees. God says that all faults result in the consequence of punishment, and so it stands to reason that, if He forced people to be perfect then He would have made robots, but obviously chose not to.

If God killed all ISIS dead tonight because of their wickedness, then to be fair he'd have to wipe out most of the rest of us, because we've all hurt someone at some time in our lives. Sometimes badly. Sometimes more to ourselves than anyone else, but nevertheless, it's still human badness. But God has more mercy than that, and offers people a lifetime of choice until it is then too late. The door is shut because the person has died either believing in Him, or not. Their choice. remember God hasn't made robots.

But that doesn't stop God nudging people to make responses that help. They choose to respond to that nudge, if that makes sense. They could choose not to, in which case God could just as easily nudge someone else to do His work.

Prayer does change things. It changes our heart response, it makes us closer to God. It gives us hope because we are reminded as we pray "your will be done" that there is a bigger picture and a plan that we might not always understand at the time, but looking back it all makes sense.

But in the same way that if you refuse to communicate with your partner, you can't expect a decent relationship to flourish, being distant from God is like having a moat around the castle. In order to drop the draw-bridge and gain access, we need to be in a right relationship with God, which means to the unbeliever to trust in and rely upon God (rather than themselves or other gods of the age, like money, power, status), and to the believer involves confessing sins and staying pure so that God responds to your prayers.

Remember he's not a 3rd class genie though. It's a bit like your 3 year old asking for sweeties and sometimes you give it, but other times you say no because you know a diet of sweets alone won't help them grow well. Not all 3 year olds will understand that plan until they're older.

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 10:01

I think for me as some others have said prayer mainly works on the person praying - when we pray we are asking God to guide us, to do his will; which is to love others. So in prayer God guides to the answer to 'what should I do here? How can I help? What difference can I make?'. As all activists of any persuasion know collective action is more effective than a bunch of individuals pulling in different directions. So when the Minister guides the OPs prayers maybe he is helping create a group effect in the congregation too - kind of compounding the benefit that might flow from each of them doing their own thing.

I do struggle with the idea that God can intervene to find someone's keys/ cure someone etc. I don't think He does but I do think the peace and love of God enter us when we pray and that is His role - to help us to choose to do his will. God also speaks to us in prayer, through our thoughts and helps us make decisions.

BibleisTrue · 19/09/2015 10:22

OP, you ask why tell God what's happening?

Jesus said, "Your Father knows what you need before you ask him" (Matthew 6:8). He already knows. But He wants to hear from you all the same. He knows and He cares.

Hebrews 4:15 tells us "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathise with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

God empathises with us, with our lack of understanding, with our suffering. He came and lived among us as one of us, and physically felt the pain of our human frailty.

Prayer is not a guarantee against suffering. "In this world you will have trouble" (John 16:33); "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed" (1 Peter 4:12-13). When his glory is revealed will be in the afterlife, so it tells us we won't have all the answers here.

As for why prayers aren't aways answered as we'd like? Well there are many reasons for that. One is praying with the wrong motives, as seen in James 4 "You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures."

I am guessing 'spending it on your own pleasures' isn't the only wrong motive, but the fact is documented that motives CAN be wrong... for whatever reason.

Some other reasons (not an exhaustive list) are documented here

SBGA · 19/09/2015 10:29

Dora: I do struggle with the idea that God can intervene to find someone's keys/ cure someone etc. I don't think He does

God is all powerful and is well capable of doing anything. Sometimes He does, and sometimes He doesn't, and usually we don't know in this life why he chooses either outcome.

But then an atheist doesn't have a good reason for why we suffer sometimes and not others either.

And an agnostic means they don't know, so they also don't know!

In John 13:7 the disciples were questioning Jesus, and his response was that all will be revealed in the afterlife. So one day we WILL know, but not always here and now.

Having said that, in hindsight we sometimes understand why suffering finally came good. But not always. Sometimes God's will is a mystery to us, and that's when faith comes in to play. We trust God's love for us, even when life is hard. And we pray because He asks us to and it brings us closer to him.

HistoryRepeatingItself · 19/09/2015 11:24

GoblinHat - you asked this:????So god too clearly favours his own. If he was such a benevolent god he would let everyone onto his kingdom, heathens, those of other faith too.????Why the need to be a christian to get a Golden Ticket?????If you believe in anything other than God, you are rejecting the fact that He is God. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes o the father but by me"????John 3:16 says "whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM shall not perish but have eternal life" ????You don't believe in him if you believe he isn't God.

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 11:30

SBGA you might be right, I don't know, my faith is certainly not like yours. In john 13:7 I don't know if Jesus is referring to the afterlife or just to a future time. But either way there are clearly different (valid) theological viewpoints about the point of intercession / supplication in prayer.

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 11:35

history some of us believe that everyone keeps getting another chance to turn to God, even after death.
So my answer to goblins question would be that everyone can enter the kingdom of God - they just have to choose to.

SBGA · 19/09/2015 12:23

God does not come across as a nice person at all. ????Do you feel the same way about a judge who convicts a criminal? ????It's funny how we seem to agree with consequences for a crime, but not punishment for wrongdoing when it comes to spiritual judgement.???? I always wonder why can't religions just be about the god/gods loving everyone, ????The Bible is full of God demonstrating his love for us. God is love doesn't change his law though. The two go together. For example, if you jump off a cliff edge the law of gravity will make you fall. You can yell "God is love, God is love, God is love" as much as you like on your way down to the rocks below, but it won't change the fact you are going to get smashed if you jump. ????and wanting us to just be generally kind and have a nice time????Well that would be a perfect world, wouldn't it? And that's exactly what God made in the garden of Eden, but it iwas only when sin entered the world that disease, sickness, pain, wrong-doing and death came into play. We don't get that again until eternity, and where we spend our eternity depends entirely on whether we choose to believe in him or whether we choose to believe in ourselves, another god, or anything that denies his existence.????

capsium · 19/09/2015 12:56

Is it ungodly? I read that the only way to salvation is through acceptance of jesus.

So god too clearly favours his own. If he was such a benevolent god he would let everyone onto his kingdom, heathens, those of other faith too.

Why the need to be a christian to get a Golden Ticket?

goblinhat, as an atheist, you would not believe God helped you (even if He did). If God is not part of your paradigm, His manifestation into the physical world, in order to help you, would only be acknowledged in terms of the physical event. For example, if I helped you as a result of God's manifestation in me, you would only acknowledge the help as coming from me. If God manifested through advantageous weather conditions, you would only acknowledge the weather conditions. If prayer works, you believe this is due to the power of the ritual in it, as like a form of witchcraft, if I am not mistaken.

Concerning Heaven, how can you be at one with God, if you do not believe in Him, do not stand for what He stands for? Would you want to be with God, at one with Him? (When you do not believe in Him, His existence.) What is Heaven, without God? The meaning of Heaven, apart from God becomes something different, altered. It would be a different sort of place. Valhalla, for example, is a different type of place to Heaven. Valhalla is a place of drinking and fighting - it reflects the Norse culture. What sort of afterlife would you like to have, goblin, if any?

SBGA · 19/09/2015 13:05

DoraDymant, "some of us believe that everyone keeps getting another chance to turn to God, even after death."

I'm not sure where you got that idea from, certainly not the bible, which clearly tells us: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, Hebrews 9:27.

"So my answer to goblins question would be that everyone can enter the kingdom of God - they just have to choose to."

God certainly would prefer that all men are saved (1 Timothy 2:4) but He gives us a free will to choose what we believe.

It's not a case of whether you believe in God, as much as which god you believe in. remember to believe means to trust in, and rely upon, with full assurance. Some people trust in themselves and reply upon false gods instead of turning to God.

People argue that God can't be love if he sends people to hell, but actually He doesn't send anyone anywhere because He has given us a way out, so anyone who goes to hell has had a choice not to; we all choose.

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 13:26

But at that moment of judgment SBGA? We don't know what happens then. I believe (I think, I lack the certainty you have about it all) that at that moment a person can choose to be at one with God. God is merciful and loves us all.

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 13:28

I think we're straying a bit from the OP here... Smile

SBGA · 19/09/2015 13:55

I agree we're straying a bit. But in answer to your question at the moment of judgement, I refer you to Luke 16: 22-23, the story of Lazarus and the rich man who had died and wanted to cross over into heaven for comfort, and for someone to come back and warn everyone else.

For him it was too late, he was told "between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

So he replied "I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Even today we see this is true. Jesus fulfilled all biblical prophesy and was raised from the dead, but even those who witnessed this, and his miracles with their own eyes said his work was that of the devil.

There is some confusion about rewards for the work of the believers, but that reward isn't eternal life, because that would be saving ourselves through our own "works". And the bible is clear we can't earn our own way to salvation, it is a free gift from God that, like any other gift, we accept or reject.

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 14:09

But in that case it's the rich man's motives that are the problem, no? He only wants to relieve his own suffering; he has not truly chosen God. And what he asks for his brothers is that they get proof, which obviously makes faith pointless. So he is just asking for shortcuts which is why he is refused. Or something. Grin

SBGA · 19/09/2015 14:14

No, his motives were found in verse 28: "so that they will not also come to this place of torment." He accepted it was too late for him, but wanted to protect them from making the same mistake.

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 14:20

Yes I know I did read it! But he wants them to have proof so that they will be saved. It doesn't change my point.

SBGA · 19/09/2015 14:23

How can wanting them to be spared be a bad motive?

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 14:36

Sorry I'm phone typing, trying to be brief and not explaining myself very well. His situation: He discovers that you can't get to heaven just because you want to save yourself the pain. So he wants to tell his brothers so they don't end up like him. But he doesn't understand that the reason he's where he is is because he has not genuinely chosen to be with God, he just wants to stop his own suffering. And he does not understand that for his brothers it's the same - they have to choose God. But it is only a choice ie. made in faith, if they have no proof. Sending them proof would defeat that which is why his request is refused.
Do you see what I'm trying to say? I don't expect you to agree because I can see you have a different understanding (and I accept it's a valid one of course); just wondering if you get how I see it?

BibleisTrue · 19/09/2015 14:37

We aren't given eternal life in heaven based on our motives, that would be our works. Ephesians 2 verse 8 tells us: 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast'

motivation = works

trusting in HIM = the free gift of eternal life

DoraDymant · 19/09/2015 14:40

Yes. X post but same point I think. He doesn't have faith which is precisely his problem.

capsium · 19/09/2015 14:46

And going on from the point you make, Bibleis, it follows that someone who does not put their faith in God, cannot be at one with God in Heaven. Without faith in God, a person would cease to be at one with God, (Christian) Heaven would cease to be Heaven for them - it would not be comfortable if they disagreed with God.

coffeetasteslikeshit · 19/09/2015 14:48

In the same way that we communicate with our partners, we should communicate with God to deepen the relationship. We don't expect a great relationship if one person refuses to talk to his partner, but we expect to feel closeness and a sense of oneness if we communicate really well and really often - and so it is with God.

I have a question about this (sorry for derailing) please. I spent years praying to God to hear me. I would sit, relax and then start praying "dear god, my heart is open, please come inside and take a seat".
I never got a reply from God though so gave up. So, my question is... did god not want a relationship with me then? I was communicating but getting nothing back!

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