Saving Jesus

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

The more I think about the story of the death of Jesus on the cross, the more I feel I want to go back in a time machine and beg him not to go through with it. From what I understand, and assuming for the moment that the story is true, Jesus could have found a way out, but felt it was the will of God and his destiny to allow events to play out without his resistance.

I just wonder, though, if Jesus (and God?) could, in principle, have been persuaded to change his mind on the matter if enough people had understood in advance the fatalism of his thinking and pleaded with him not to do it on their account?

Would there have been a way to convince him that he didn’t have to fulfil prophecies, nor save us from our sins?

You see, my personal feeling is that, if I am intrinsically unworthy of heaven, and ‘boosted’ into the possibility of experiencing it only through the sacrifice of Jesus, I would rather accept that death is the end and have Jesus escape crucifixion. If suffering of an innocent being is the price to be paid for heaven, then I would prefer to give up on such a heaven and take the rap for my own sins.

Am I alone in feeling this way? I really don't think I can be.

Had Jesus lived longer, he would probably have found time to write his memoirs, providing a record of his teachings in a form we could be confident he was happy with. We would not have to worry about the inerrancy, or otherwise, of the New Testament. If he had wanted to start a church, he could have been specific about his intentions for it.

Moreover, there would have been more time for his influence as a teacher to spread and for his life to be documented by the writers of the day in such a way that his very existence wouldn’t be in question. While we wouldn’t have an afterlife in heaven to look forward to, the writings of Jesus would illuminate our path in the life we do have. (I am assuming no afterlife, but if it had to be hell, at least it would be hell with a conscience unburdened by the thought of having been complicit in the suffering of Jesus.)

I know it’s not really possible to change the past, and many will think me bonkers and/or naive for thinking about changing the history of Christianity, but who would come with me in my time machine to try to save Jesus?

What is a flaw capsium?

My OH can be lazy- he works hard and earns good money, but will leave empty teacups and rubbish around the house.

That laziness however is part of the same trait that attracted me to him, that manjana attitude also means he is very easy going, extremely tolerant and never gets rattled, copes well in a crisis and very level headed.

These behaviours are all part of the same personality trait. Is that a flaw capsium?

I am different, very mercurial in thought, can fly off the handle, quick to anger, quick to make up.
That energetic style also means I throw myself into projects, good an initiating things, and means I am self employed running two businesses.

Is my style a flaw?

I don't seen either OH or I having flaws- can you just not accept that we are human- simply another animal- do you see dogs as having flaws?

Christians don't have to clear up their own shit though- they have jesus on a stick to do that for them. Very handy.

The flaw is responding with the wrong behaviour at the wrong time. So yes the laid back, easy going attitude, is sometimes the most appropriate response but sometimes not if the situation calls for someone to be more proactive.

What we need to be is flexible in our responses - without prejudice, which lends itself to a certain amount of unpredictability, I believe.

John 3:8 says,

"8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (KJV)

And Christians do have "clear up their own shit" as they should allow God to work through them and begin to emulate Christ themselves (can't just leave Him on "a stick" if they are true believers).

I still don't see that as a flaw- it's simply being human. I couldn't think of anything more nauseating than living with a perfect person.
Your jesus sounds very dull.

Soooo, not being perfect equates to being human...you seem to at least agree with this.

Jesus is never boring because, although perfect, this means He is unpredictable (see above) and keeps me guessing, He keeps surprising me (with good surprises because He is good) and I keep learning new things.

I am glad - although not sure how some prophet who died 2000 years ago can surprise you.

"He keeps surprising me (with good surprises because He is good) and I keep learning new things."

Could you give some examples?

I am glad - although not sure how some prophet who died 2000 years ago can surprise you.

Because He lives, not only in me but in others too and at His fathers right hand side in Heaven, according to my beliefs. And as I keep finding more about Him, increase my understanding of Him in the Bible.

Bertrand I attribute all that is good to God, but yes I have also had prayers answered, instantly in some cases.

But he doesn't live. He died. Dead people don't talk.

He rose from the dead, according to Christian belief, keep.

He didn't though- that is a made up story.

I believe it is true and so this belief is part of me, He is part of me and thus lives in me. Other Christians believe the same too and so He lives in those of us who believe. No matter what you believe is 'made up' keep - He is made manifest through those that believe on Him.

Believing something to be true does not make it true.

If you like having imaginary friends then go ahead. Don't expect me to have any respect for them though.

Not believing something to be true does not make it not true either.

Truth exists beyond our realisation the of it. Except by realising the truth, it can become (more) real to us and is made manifest in us and through us, as we communicate our realisation. Because what goes unnoticed is unappreciated and can easily be forgotten.

Not believing something to be true does not make it not true either.

You are free to believe whatever you like, but the facts don't give a toss what anyone believes.

Dead people stay dead....forever. That's a fact.

How do you establish facts, TTWK? (as opposed to our, human, collective or individual, perception of them)

Is there data existent which we cannot perceive?

Capsium, that's just a licence to believe nonsense. The Earth is flat, the sun goes around the Earth, you can use the "facts are just a human construct" phsycobablle to justify any old tripe.

It is true that human perceptions vary across different cultures, our perceptions are affected by our culture and collective beliefs. This article demonstrates this phenomenon,

www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/joe-henrich-weird-ultimatum-game-shaking-up-psychology-economics-53135

This does not mean we can never establish what is true. Within the Christian Faith it is believed that God will give according to His will, we cannot believe whatever we want and see it manifest. However in order to realise and make personally real what is actually there we have to be open to receiving it, ie 'seek' it. Otherwise things that are not immediately realised as existing can go unnoticed, unappreciated and misunderstood.

This does not mean we can never establish what is true.

If you don't think there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate beyond doubt that dead people stay dead, then I fail to see how you can accept accept any known fact as true.

I can't think of many things less open to debate than the complete failure thru human history of dead people to come back to life.

But surprise me. Tell me something about the world, science and nature related, that you accept is true.

TTWK you've partially understood something about me there.

Before I decided to explore my Christian Faith further, I was in danger of being somewhat lost in a post modern relativist pit, whenever I thought too much at length on any subject. I could argue myself in or out of almost anything. Analysis paralysis easily ensued.

It was my Christian Faith and prayer, however, that actually helped me with this, helped me gain clarity.

Before I decided to explore my Christian Faith further, I was in danger of being somewhat lost in a post modern relativist pit, whenever I thought too much at length on any subject. I could argue myself in or out of almost anything

I'm sorry to be the one to have to break the news to you, but I don't think your faith has cured you!

Well, it's not like you get to see a 'before' and 'after' with this. I can actually be surprisingly decisive in RL and have made many big decisions very quickly which have worked out well.

Hypothetical situations are more difficult to talk about though, as my process is often more intuitive than scientific. Since having faith, I have felt more comfortable with trusting those decisions I have to make without having access to all the facts. In these type of decisions motivations are key, I find.

Well, it's not like you get to see a 'before' and 'after' with this. I can actually be surprisingly decisive in RL and have made many big decisions very quickly which have worked out well.

I've absolutely no doubt that if you go into a difficult situation thinking you have god on your side, you can perform better that someone without faith. Be it an army in battle, or a fanatical terrorist group, or a footballer taking a crucial penalty. But it's no more that a placebo effect.

The fact that someone can turn their lives around having found god has no bearing on the actual existence or otherwise of god.

The Placebo and Nocebo effects do indeed indicate how powerful belief can be. However because this belief could be in anything the effect is not always a positive one, hence Nocebo. There is an element of unwieldiness here. The belief is not controlled in anyway.

The Christian Faith is more specific, it does not include belief in just whatever we happen to believe - it is more disciplined.