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Saving Jesus

236 replies

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 28/05/2015 23:01

The more I think about the story of the death of Jesus on the cross, the more I feel I want to go back in a time machine and beg him not to go through with it. From what I understand, and assuming for the moment that the story is true, Jesus could have found a way out, but felt it was the will of God and his destiny to allow events to play out without his resistance.

I just wonder, though, if Jesus (and God?) could, in principle, have been persuaded to change his mind on the matter if enough people had understood in advance the fatalism of his thinking and pleaded with him not to do it on their account?

Would there have been a way to convince him that he didn’t have to fulfil prophecies, nor save us from our sins?

You see, my personal feeling is that, if I am intrinsically unworthy of heaven, and ‘boosted’ into the possibility of experiencing it only through the sacrifice of Jesus, I would rather accept that death is the end and have Jesus escape crucifixion. If suffering of an innocent being is the price to be paid for heaven, then I would prefer to give up on such a heaven and take the rap for my own sins.

Am I alone in feeling this way? I really don't think I can be.

Had Jesus lived longer, he would probably have found time to write his memoirs, providing a record of his teachings in a form we could be confident he was happy with. We would not have to worry about the inerrancy, or otherwise, of the New Testament. If he had wanted to start a church, he could have been specific about his intentions for it.

Moreover, there would have been more time for his influence as a teacher to spread and for his life to be documented by the writers of the day in such a way that his very existence wouldn’t be in question. While we wouldn’t have an afterlife in heaven to look forward to, the writings of Jesus would illuminate our path in the life we do have. (I am assuming no afterlife, but if it had to be hell, at least it would be hell with a conscience unburdened by the thought of having been complicit in the suffering of Jesus.)

I know it’s not really possible to change the past, and many will think me bonkers and/or naive for thinking about changing the history of Christianity, but who would come with me in my time machine to try to save Jesus?

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 31/05/2015 19:24

To be honest, Bertrand, I have a problem with that view of the atonement too, as I said upthread.

headinhands · 31/05/2015 20:26

anyone who follows his teachings will be a decent human being

Selling your goods to buy weapons, hating your family and being racist do not make people decent.

mrstweefromtweesville · 02/06/2015 10:32

I don't know your life BR. Perhaps you are sinless. Perhaps you've never caused harm. I doubt it, though, if you're human.

headinhands what are you on about? if you object to Jesus being prepared for what he thought was on its way (end times, big disruption) you need to think of him in context. 'Hating your family'? When? Where? He gave his dependent mother into the care of one of his followers. Having different beliefs would split families, he made people aware of that. Its likely he had a wife and probably children but there is no evidence to suggest he hated them - he was living as an itinerant preacher, there were a good few about in those days. He was racist? Was he? Where's your evidence?

BertrandRussell · 02/06/2015 10:40

"I don't know your life BR. Perhaps you are sinless. Perhaps you've never caused harm. I doubt it, though, if you're human."

Of course I have caused harm. I have lived a long life and I am a fallible human being . But you said ""We just aren’t big enough or strong enough to take on what we deserve for the sin we occasion."

I repeat, what sin might I have occasioned that I am not big and strong enough to take the consequences for?

madhairday · 02/06/2015 14:40

That's a really interesting OP, Outwith - and I'm sorry that you've not found this thread as helpful as you'd hoped. I've enjoyed reading it (just back from holiday) and think people have engaged well with the initial question.

I agree with niminy (as usual! :) ) I'd love a time machine, and I'd love to go back in it and meet Jesus. That would be pretty awesome. But I wouldn't - couldn't - stop him going to be crucified. I think I would weep, and mourn, along with Mary Magedelene and the other disciples. But Jesus was doing what he was supposed to do. I also don't see it so much as a 'being tortured instead of us as we deserve it' type of dynamic, but go more with the Christus Victor model of atonement as described so well by niminy further back in the thread. For me, one of the most incredible things about my faith is that I believe Jesus conquered death. His resurrection was about so much more than proving he was God - it was about a cosmic re-ordering, as it were, a display of how God made it possible for us to be with him, eternally - that death doesn't need to win.

I like the redemption theory too, because I do think we need to take on some personal responsibility for the crap we do. I behave badly sometimes, I don't know anyone who is perfect. I do some really shitty things and I'm responsible. But I believe in God's forgiveness (one of the ways God's like a human parent, hih Grin ) - and grace - grace that doesn't reward the 'deserving' but simply the loved.

By this token, penal substitutionary atonement theory doesn't quite fit, because it's all about torturing someone because someone else 'deserves' it. And yet God has shown time and again God is a God of grace and mercy, not a God who looks at the deserving and the undeserving and decides who should get what in arbitrary fashion according to which.

Sorry, going off on theological tangents here which I need to explore further myself to have even a hope of understanding what I am wittering on about. Grin

Good to see you all.

VelvetGreen · 02/06/2015 15:17

mrstwee - when an atheist says that they have never sinned it is because most reject the concept of sin as it is usually defined in terms of a transgression against divine will. Since there is no belief in divine will there is no concept of sin. It is not a case of claiming to have never been responsible for any wrongdoing to ourselves or others, just not wrongdoing as stipulated by a deity. Sin and wrongdoing are not interchangeable terms unless you invoke faith.

capsium · 02/06/2015 16:10

I think I can understand why people believe Jesus took the punishment we deserved because we (the we being human kind) crucified Jesus, someone who was completely without sin, who did God's will entirely. Human kind murdered Him. Yet He forgave us and bore it and so bore our (as in human kind's) sin.

Not that I would ever say this is all, as He overcame death and the power sin can have over us through His resurrection.

BertrandRussell · 02/06/2015 17:06

So I deserve to be punished for something that happened 2000 years ago. And which it has already been said was prophesied and pre ordained?

capsium · 02/06/2015 17:18

That is not what I am saying Bertrand.

To me, that human kind (as a collective decision) was able to crucify Jesus, is simply indicative of how flawed human kind is. Under the law murder is punished, so people can say human kind deserves to be punished. We (as in human kind) punished God in Jesus for what were our own flaws. Yet God forgives us. Christ asked His father for our forgiveness.

headinhands · 03/06/2015 10:21

It is barbaric and the way of terrorism to hold people responsible and punish them for something they didn't do. I didn't ask Jesus to die for me. I am responsible for mistakes I make. Do I deserve to be punished with physical pain for the mistakes I have made over 40 years. No. The police and the law are there to identify those who would do great harm and to prevent them doing further harm. It's cruel to sacrifice your child and then punish people for not being grateful. No one else can say sorry for what I have done, it's for no one other than the person I hurt to forgive me.

headinhands · 03/06/2015 10:22

we punished god

I haven't. I haven't done anything to him.

headinhands · 03/06/2015 10:28

god's forgiveness

In what way is it like god? I forgive my children if they upset me because I know we all make mistakes and if we forgive others they forgive us. It is not my place to forgive them when they have upset others. I haven't had to brutally sacrifice one of my other children in order to be able to forgive. I just do because I understand that being forgiving makes for better relationships and emotional well being. No barbaric shedding of anyone's blood required.

capsium · 03/06/2015 11:16

head where did I say you, personally? The 'we' I was referring to was strictly in reference to the we as in human kind - as I explicitly stated.

God let Jesus be crucified by the people, Jesus let Himself be crucified. Yes, you did not ask this of Him. However by letting Himself be crucified this shows in no uncertain terms the fallibility present within human kind, in that human kind would crucify the embodiment of God. If He had prevented it, the crucifixion, this fallibility, these flaws, present within human kind, would not have been made so undeniably explicit. Acknowledging fault, fallibility, is necessary in order for to be forgiven and be redeemed. Put simply, if there is no acknowledgement of what is wrong, how can it be put right?

BertrandRussell · 03/06/2015 11:33

But doesn't "we" include all of us as individuals?

capsium · 03/06/2015 11:35

Bertrand depends if you want to be included...

mrstweefromtweesville · 03/06/2015 17:44

VelvetGreen - thanks for that. I'd forgotten about atheists... Blush

headinhands · 03/06/2015 20:46

But it's immoral to hold someone accountable for something someone else did based on the fact that they are the same species, race, socioeconomic class and so on. If someone steals my car I don't hold all humans accountable.

capsium · 03/06/2015 21:47

head no one has to be held accountable for what others have done.

The crucifixion being indicative of the fallibility of human kind is what I was talking about.

I wonder what would happen to Jesus now, if God had chosen for Him to live amongst our society. Would He have been treated as someone who is insane?(for saying that he was the Messiah, faith healing, bringing people back from the dead, upturning stalls in the temple) Would He have been have put in a secure facility, chemically sedated? What would the newspapers say?

Somehow I don't imagine Jesus would have been treated fantastically in today's society either, although in our society we don't crucify people - however people are still rejected and treated as something other.

capsium · 04/06/2015 07:47

And we do ask what is wrong with society/communities when crime rates are high/disturbing crimes happen. Questions are raised, we do have a certain form of collective responsibility. It was in this context I was making my earlier comments from.

BertrandRussell · 04/06/2015 08:48

Assuming for the purposes of this thread that the historical figure of Jesus existed, he was executed in a way that many other criminal and perceived criminals were. He was not unique in his crucifixion. He lived in a society which executed people. There was nothing most people at the time could have done about it. The last person to be hanged in the UK died in my lifetime. Am I responsible for that? Should I be punished because my child self did nothing to prevent it?

BertrandRussell · 04/06/2015 08:49

Jesus' death was not a crime. It was a judicial punishment. Awful and barbaric. But not a crime.

capsium · 04/06/2015 09:16

Bertrand who said anything about you being punished? (For Jesus' crucifixion or anyone who has been executed). Added to this God judges people as individuals.

I am simply saying the crucifixion was indicative of the flaws in human kind. Would you argue against that, Russell? Do you think it was justified? You described it as a judicial punishment...

Regarding responsibility, it depends whether you are able to respond. If you judge something as unjust or wrong from the past, do you learn from it? What do you learn? How do lessons learnt from the past, past people, affect you? If the past can affect a response in you, you can take some degree of responsibility, not for changing the past but for taking action in the way you, personally, act in the future.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 07:27

Jesus crucifixion was one of many that happened at that time, it was indicative of how barbaric society/humanity was at that time in that region.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 07:34

It seems like we are expected to feel guilty for Jesus' death?

headinhands · 06/06/2015 07:42

I don't imagine Jesus would be treated fantastically.

You think society would ignore someone who was going about raising people from the dead? Healing people with cancer? Miracles that could be easily verified as true instances of the laws of physics being suspended. I'm guessing there is a reason Jesus came when he did, to a time when few people could read or write and that he didn't write his own gospel, not even his disciples wrote one, a time before we had video and a means to test claims.