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Saving Jesus

236 replies

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 28/05/2015 23:01

The more I think about the story of the death of Jesus on the cross, the more I feel I want to go back in a time machine and beg him not to go through with it. From what I understand, and assuming for the moment that the story is true, Jesus could have found a way out, but felt it was the will of God and his destiny to allow events to play out without his resistance.

I just wonder, though, if Jesus (and God?) could, in principle, have been persuaded to change his mind on the matter if enough people had understood in advance the fatalism of his thinking and pleaded with him not to do it on their account?

Would there have been a way to convince him that he didn’t have to fulfil prophecies, nor save us from our sins?

You see, my personal feeling is that, if I am intrinsically unworthy of heaven, and ‘boosted’ into the possibility of experiencing it only through the sacrifice of Jesus, I would rather accept that death is the end and have Jesus escape crucifixion. If suffering of an innocent being is the price to be paid for heaven, then I would prefer to give up on such a heaven and take the rap for my own sins.

Am I alone in feeling this way? I really don't think I can be.

Had Jesus lived longer, he would probably have found time to write his memoirs, providing a record of his teachings in a form we could be confident he was happy with. We would not have to worry about the inerrancy, or otherwise, of the New Testament. If he had wanted to start a church, he could have been specific about his intentions for it.

Moreover, there would have been more time for his influence as a teacher to spread and for his life to be documented by the writers of the day in such a way that his very existence wouldn’t be in question. While we wouldn’t have an afterlife in heaven to look forward to, the writings of Jesus would illuminate our path in the life we do have. (I am assuming no afterlife, but if it had to be hell, at least it would be hell with a conscience unburdened by the thought of having been complicit in the suffering of Jesus.)

I know it’s not really possible to change the past, and many will think me bonkers and/or naive for thinking about changing the history of Christianity, but who would come with me in my time machine to try to save Jesus?

OP posts:
capsium · 06/06/2015 08:29

How do you, scientifically, verify a miracle, head?

"Definition of miracle in English:
noun

1An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency:
the miracle of rising from the grave" (OED)

So, in theory, a miracle would just remain 'unexplained', to the scientific community. Any miraculous events would be described as 'spontaneous'. An atheist, who has no belief in (a) G(g)od(s), would not assign the event to 'a divine agency'.

capsium · 06/06/2015 08:42

Jesus crucifixion was one of many that happened at that time, it was indicative of how barbaric society/humanity was at that time in that region.

Plenty of barbaric acts have occurred much more recently and much more close to home, unfortunately. We cannot simply resign barbarism to the past.

BertrandRussell · 06/06/2015 08:48

You shoudn't need to have to have faith to believe a miracle has happened.

capsium · 06/06/2015 08:52

Bertrand there is a clue in that word 'believe' you have used in your sentence...Wink

BertrandRussell · 06/06/2015 09:02

Sorry- I retract "believe" and replace it with "see".

capsium · 06/06/2015 09:33

Bertrand, so you think there is no belief involved, to attribute something unexplained by science, to God and thus define it as a miracle? Interesting position to take...

(...and people accuse Christians as having blind faith...)

BertrandRussell · 06/06/2015 09:41

I know someone who has one leg. If someone said "I am Jesus and I can make his leg grow back" and it happened, I would have to accept that a miracle had happened. If Mount Everest suddenly appeared in the Lake District, or the Sahara Desert overnight became a gigantic cornfield, ditto. But miracles are never like that. They are always vague and equivocal or intensely personal. Those require faith. And are, by definition, not miracles.

capsium · 06/06/2015 09:49

Bertrand but by the definition, miracle do require faith. It is implied in the act of attributing something to 'divine agency'. No matter how great or small the miracle. And I do wonder, that even with very great miracles, how much some people are prepared to do this.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 09:54

That's a straw man, I didn't say no one/society is barbaric now but as a species we are much less barbaric as evidenced in the fossil record of human skeletons that show signs of skull fractures. Even including the wars of the last 100 years we have not achieved the human on human kill rate that we had much earlier in our development.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 10:00

There are things that could happen that I would have to acknowledge were outside of what we understand about physics such as a every cancer patient in the world suddenly making a spontaneous recovery. Without a deity revealing themselves in an indisputable and verifiable way and proving they were responsible how would I attribute it to a divine agent and not say some other unknown entity like super advanced aliens? I'm guessing that all theists would attribute it to their God.

BertrandRussell · 06/06/2015 10:01

" And I do wonder, that even with very great miracles, how much some people are prepared to do this."

Who knows? There's never been one. Why doesn't God give it a try and see what happens?

headinhands · 06/06/2015 10:02

prepared to do this

It not about being prepared to believe it, it's like saying 'are you prepared to believe 2+2=4'. What I think is entirely independent of the facts. If I reject the proven and most logical explanation it doesn't matter.

capsium · 06/06/2015 10:37

Bertrand well you can just wait and see, can't you. Your choice.

head straw man? You keep invoking him but I don't know what this proves. Thing is we don't have the same perceptions in life. IMO your whole perception of what my Christian beliefs involve is a straw man. I'm not sure you can scientifically compare degrees of barbarism across history. It certainly still happens. Is one barbaric act worse than another? Is barbarism worse now we have had history to inform us of it's impact? One barbaric act is still one too many.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 12:11

But we KNOW that we are less barbaric as a species. It is a quantitive issue.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 12:14

You said something that suggested I had indicated barbarism never happened anymore but I hadn't suggested that. I merely pointed out that lots of people were being crucified.

Another reason that Jesus didn't wait and come to the UK in 2015 because saying 'Jesus was sectioned for your sins' is less guilt inducing.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 12:22

How do you think we might decide something that had occurred was outside of what we understand about the laws of physics like Mt Everest appearing in the Lake District as suggested earlier? Are you saying there would be no way? How do you decide if something is a miracle? Do you have any examples of things that have happened that that there is no logical explanation for using what we know to be the case about psychology and science etc?

capsium · 06/06/2015 12:37

head you said this,

Jesus crucifixion was one of many that happened at that time, it was indicative of how barbaric society/humanity was at that time in that region.

This was in reference to the point I was making concerning Jesus' crucifixion being indicative of the flaws within human kind. Your point seems to be disputing this, arguing it is not relevant and was only relevant in terms of the society it occurred within, at the time. I am arguing it is still relevant, barbaric acts still occur and you cannot resign them to the past. Barbarism is still present within human societies, even after all the lessons, we have had the opportunity to learn, from the past.

Another reason that Jesus didn't wait and come to the UK in 2015 because saying 'Jesus was sectioned for your sins' is less guilt inducing.

Why would God have waited? I believe Jesus came at the first possible opportunity, in terms of enough people being ready to accept Him. To be honest, being 'sectioned for your sins' would be horrific to me also. Psychotropic drugs, sedation, physical restraint and severely compromised privacy and freedom, indefinitely, is a very serious situation also.

capsium · 06/06/2015 12:37

head you said this,

Jesus crucifixion was one of many that happened at that time, it was indicative of how barbaric society/humanity was at that time in that region.

This was in reference to the point I was making concerning Jesus' crucifixion being indicative of the flaws within human kind. Your point seems to be disputing this, arguing it is not relevant and was only relevant in terms of the society it occurred within, at the time. I am arguing it is still relevant, barbaric acts still occur and you cannot resign them to the past. Barbarism is still present within human societies, even after all the lessons, we have had the opportunity to learn, from the past.

Another reason that Jesus didn't wait and come to the UK in 2015 because saying 'Jesus was sectioned for your sins' is less guilt inducing.

Why would God have waited? I believe Jesus came at the first possible opportunity, in terms of enough people being ready to accept Him. To be honest, being 'sectioned for your sins' would be horrific to me also. Psychotropic drugs, sedation, physical restraint and severely compromised privacy and freedom, indefinitely, is a very serious situation also.

capsium · 06/06/2015 12:47

How do you think we might decide something that had occurred was outside of what we understand about the laws of physics like Mt Everest appearing in the Lake District as suggested earlier? Are you saying there would be no way? How do you decide if something is a miracle? Do you have any examples of things that have happened that that there is no logical explanation for using what we know to be the case about psychology and science etc?

I am saying there would be no scientific way of determining something is a miracle because attributing something to God rather than labelling it unexplained is dependent on belief o lack of it. Miracles are decided on faith entirely, according to my understanding.

You and I, head, have had this discussion concerning miracles before and I suggested you find your own examples of unexplained phenomena to test and see if it amazed you enough to seriously question whether it was a miracle. Only you know what would satisfy you. Personally I see a miraculous element to the whole of life, even alongside a natural element. I am less concerned with attempting to prove miracles.

headinhands · 06/06/2015 13:24

I think the point I was making was that Jesus was crucified because that was what the authorities did to people who broke the law THEN. God sent his son at a time when he would die a certain way? Would the price for your sins have been paid if Jesus came nowadays and ended up being sectioned for 9 weeks?

headinhands · 06/06/2015 13:33

What would convince me of a miracle is what convinces me of other big things, evidence. So yes I do know what I require. If someone said 'Allah has raised my pet dog from the dead' at what point do you believe them?

TTWK · 06/06/2015 14:01

Capsium-Why would God have waited?

Well he waited 13.8 billion years since he apparently kicked off the universe, and he waited 4.7 billion years from the formation of the Earth, and around 8 million years since primitive human like creatures evolved from the other great apes, and about 300K years from the advent of modern humans. So another 2000 years would have been no biggie!

Also, if he was sending his son down to earth 200 yrs ago, you'd think jesus would pitch up somewhere with an advanced society, proper record keeping, like China, as opposed to arriving in the midst of a bunch of largely illiterate, poorly educated, desert nomads.

TTWK · 06/06/2015 14:03

2000 yrs ago, not 200!

headinhands · 06/06/2015 15:27

So you equate physical crucifixion with sedation? Shock

headinhands · 06/06/2015 15:31

Sectioning people with severe/psychotic mental illnesses is necessary to protect THEM and their loved ones/society. Would you rather we treat people people with such mental illness as if they were possessed with imaginary creatures?