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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Why bad things happen

96 replies

niminypiminy · 07/04/2015 11:59

Since a few posters have started doing this one again on a thread where someone was asking for advice about prayer, I though I'd start a thread and encourage people to come over here.

So, if you want to talk about why bad things happen to good people (and otherwise), determinism, free will, God's goodness or otherwise, the problem of suffering and/or evil, and whether God is a child-murderer, here's a good space to do it....

OP posts:
Hoplikeabunny · 07/04/2015 12:34

Someone on the other thread said-

Earthquakes and bad thing happen because when the children of God rejected him, they lost certain protections and privileges. Deuteronomy 28

I just cannot get my head around this? How is that remotely moral? If I went round shooting dogs because I got bitten by one as a child, people would call me evil! Is this not the same sort of thing but on a enormous scale?!

niminypiminy · 07/04/2015 12:37

Need to go and do some domestic stuff for a bit but I do have something to say about that, Hoplike -- I find that pretty difficult to get my head around too but I think it's a misreading of the OT. Back in a bit!

OP posts:
Hoplikeabunny · 07/04/2015 12:39

Okay no worries niminy Smile

I may not be back for a while too, but will be back at some point!

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 07/04/2015 13:54

Theodicy - the problem of why bad stuff happens is split into two areas. One is natural disasters - floods, earthquakes etc and the other is about people and why they do evil things.

My understanding of the natural disaster element of the question is that the world is has change and movement as part of how it is, so we have plate tectonics which mean that there are earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. We have a moon which results in tides. Whether life could have come about on a planet that was solid is a question I don't know the answer to.

I've never heard Deut 28 quoted as a reason for earthquakes. I thought that was part of the understanding of the covenant between God and his people. Much of the OT was written/rewritten in the 7th century BC and the writers are looking back at the history of the people of Israel to work out why everything had gone horribly wrong for them. They decide that because the people didn't obey the laws given to them from God via Moses they had ended up in exile. Thus Deut 28 is full of dire warnings of what might happen because it already has.

niminypiminy · 07/04/2015 14:30

Broadly in agreement with thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts here regarding Deuteronomy 28.

In 597 BCE, c. 587 BCE, and c. 582 BCE (according to wikipedia), Jerusalem was captured by the Babylonian empire, and all the leaders of the people - the ruling class, the priests, the landowners, everybody who was anybody - was deported to Babylon. The Jews had lost everything: they'd lost their homes and their homeland, and everything they possessed, and they had to walk around 500 miles to live as exiles in a place with a different language and culture and religion.

Their temple, the centre of their communal life, was destroyed, but they brought with them scrolls containing various writings that had been kept there. During the exile, which lasted some decades, scribes and priests edited and rewrote these writings into the books that make up the majority of the Old Testament. They took a lot of much earlier material and rewrote it, and put in a lot of new stuff.

They wanted to make sense of what had happened to them, so they wrote a history of their people from the dawn of time up to the present day. It wasn't a history in the way we understand it, based on sources and documents, but a history that would tell the Jews their story as a people, and explain why this catastrophe had happened.

Their basic story is that God - JHWH - had made a covenant, a solemn promise, with Israel, along these lines: I will be your God and you will be my people. Those words occur five times in the Old Testament, and variations on the theme even more. God adopted the Israelites as his chosen people, and promised to be faithful to them. But he also told them that in return they had to stop worshipping other gods.

The scribes and priests in the exile saw this as the key to what had happened to them. God had been faithful, but the Israelites hadn't. They kept on building altars to other gods and sacrificing to them. They just wouldn't keep their promises. This made God angry and was the source of all the terrible things that had happened to the Jewish people in their history.

As soon as they got back on track with JHWH their fortunes improved, but then they'd go off and start worshiping Baal or one of the other ancient near eastern deities again, and things would start to go wrong. The scribes and priests in the exile rewrote the whole of Jewish history in line with this explanation, leading up to the terrible catastrophes of the 7th century.

As Thegreenheart says, that chapter in Deuternonomy (the key book that the scribes and priests of the exile wrote pretty much all of) is a prediction of what had already happened. They put into Moses's mouth a prediction of the fall of Jerusalem, the razing of the Temple and the exile to Babylon. And they saw the Jewish people's unfaithfulness to JHWH as the root cause. It's all about keeping your promises.

So it's completely wrong to use that chapter as a way of explaining why there are earthquakes. There are earthquakes because that is the nature of the planet that we're on. It's an anthropocentric point of view to say that God should stop earthquakes to stop humans getting killed.

Right, I'll stop there before I write a book!

OP posts:
headinhands · 08/04/2015 10:31

The free will argument is blown out of the water by the biblical flood and the unasked for NT miracles and that is just for starters.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 08/04/2015 11:17

The flood is part of the covenant story and the miracles are part of the understanding of who Jesus is.

I don't see why either of those impact on the free will arguement, please explain.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 11:47

Well some theists say that god doesn't stop child abuse because of free will, but if he had a problem stepping in and altering the course of things he wouldn't have drowned the earth and done un asked for miracles. For instance reattaching the soldiers ear without him asking, so if he can step in then without being asked then to sort something out why can he step in a stop paedophiles hurting children?

headinhands · 08/04/2015 11:52

If you said you had a dog that was supernatural and made the world, including me, and how it had the right to judge everyone, including me, and send some people to hell, including me, but was loving although it just sat and watched people suffering unspeakable horrors even though it was all powerful, then I would have something to say about your dog even though I'm not 'into dogs'.

capsium · 08/04/2015 12:55

head, Luke 22 says,

"50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him." (KJV)

Do you not think the servant could have attempted to stop Him? That is if He didn't trust Jesus to heal? He touched Him. Amazing, can you imagine someone not even flinching in this situation? Or no one else stepping in.They were a group of armed men, coming to arrest Jesus. So I don't think this shows the servant being in resistance, that is his consent is implied. So this instance does not negate free will IMO.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 13:20

So I don't think this shows the servant being in resistance,

Jesus acted without being asked if he wanted him to act, if you are saying Jesus acted because it was obvious that the guy would want his ear back, then is it not obvious that a child does not want to be abused. Of course it negates free will. What about the free will of Lazarus? His family might have wanted him to be brought back to life but if Jesus again assumed that Lazarus wanted that then how does he decide that a women being raped doesn't want it to stop.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 13:26

How does prayer work then if free will is so important? So there is no point you praying for someone who doesn't believe in Jesus? What matters to Jesus. Is it that you believe in him, or want to be healed?

capsium · 08/04/2015 13:31

According to my understanding, Jesus was fully human in the encounter with the servant, God acted through His physical flesh. Now God acts through the physical flesh of the people who believe on Him. So these people, who believe on Him, have to step in and stop abuses.

capsium · 08/04/2015 13:47

I believe both matter to Him, head Believing on Jesus is the way people are healed, made whole, changed to become more Christ like, according to Christian belief. Prayer works because it allows a person to engage with God, know Him and His will for us, which enables a person to strengthen their faith as they can believe God's will in coming to pass (that is if they don't rebel against this, disagree with it).

capsium · 08/04/2015 13:54

There is a point in praying for people who don't believe in Jesus, head. Just because people do not believe now, does not mean they will never believe. In the Bible people were healed by Jesus, when their loved ones expressed faith, that Jesus would heal them.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 14:01

have to step in and stop abuses

why?

headinhands · 08/04/2015 14:03

that Jesus would heal them

which is him not worrying about their free will isn't it.

capsium · 08/04/2015 14:09

Because people who commit abuses are going against God's perfect will. God is a spirit, which can manifest (act) physically through people's physical flesh, according to my belief. However because we have free will we can prevent that manifestation, rebel against it. So God can act, physically, through people who believe on Him, according to my belief.

capsium · 08/04/2015 14:10

head the healing would probably not last very long if they didn't want it.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 14:56

going against God's perfect will

so it's okay for god not to act in line with his will, but it is not okay for me to do the same?

which can manifest (act) physically through people's physical flesh

so there are no such things as miracles then? What about the things god did in the bible that didn't require a human agent? So he CAN act without a human to do it.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 14:58

if they didn't want it

I can't think of many people that don't want to be well. So if god healed you buy getting rid of your cancer would it just come back if you didn't want the healing anymore? I'm confused?

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:00

because we have free will we can prevent that manifestation, rebel against it

but god has manifested and done stuff without human assistance in the bible?

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:12

I think God's Holy Spirit is the agent, affecting us or other physical matter head. We, as people, express faith in compliance with Him changing us. We are not the agents. So God can change someone who believes on Him in order to help someone else. But God can also affect other physical matter, hence parting of the sea account etc.

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:14

head you were the one talking about people not wanting healing, with your comment about 'not worrying about their free will'.

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:25

And would you accept the Holy Spirit manifesting in you and through you head, or would you fight against this?