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Original poster

Why bad things happen

96 replies

niminypiminy · 07/04/2015 11:59

Since a few posters have started doing this one again on a thread where someone was asking for advice about prayer, I though I'd start a thread and encourage people to come over here.

So, if you want to talk about why bad things happen to good people (and otherwise), determinism, free will, God's goodness or otherwise, the problem of suffering and/or evil, and whether God is a child-murderer, here's a good space to do it....

OP posts:
headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:29

hence parting of the sea account etc

but that affected their free will though didn't it. As did the flood. And Aquinas and Sapphira being struck dead. Lots of examples of god not allowing people to do what they want.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:30

in order to help someone else

what about that person's free will? The one the Christian is praying for?

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:32

What would the the Holy Spirit manifesting in and through me feel and look like?

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:33

head you were the one talking about people not wanting healing, with your comment about 'not worrying about their free will'

I don't understand, can you clarify?

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:33

Free will is in terms of being able to choose God and the things of or not. Being with God or apart from Him. Not in terms of, 'I can have whatever I want and do what I want because nothing can stop me because I am free.'

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:35

I still don't understand, I think you need to go back further.

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:36

Why not ask Him to and try it? Oh you'd have to believe in the manifestation of The Holy Spirit, in order to comply with it though...Because if you don't believe in something, you are against it happening.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:36

Which is probably my fault, am multitasking...

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:38

Sorry I still don't understand how this explains god acting without human help in the bible and overriding people's free will when lots of theists claim that god can't stop child abuse because of free will.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 15:39

Because if you don't believe in something, you are against it happening.

But many things work without people believing in it, or even being able to believe in it such as babies and vaccinations. And people praying for non-Christians.

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:41

Re not wanting healing, you said this, head, here:

"Add message | Report | Message poster headinhands Wed 08-Apr-15 14:03:11
that Jesus would heal them

which is him not worrying about their free will isn't it."

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:49

You are talking about medicine, which acts physically by taking advantage of people's knowledge of natural laws and biological mechanisms, head.

Spiritual or faith healing involves faith and belief, allowing people to be affected at a spiritual level, which then in turn can manifest in the flesh, affecting a person on a physical level.

Spiritual healing does not preclude natural healing or visa versa according to my beliefs.

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:57

Depends how actively non Christian they are, head. For example if God worked through me to physical help you, would you refuse my help because of my Christian beliefs? This is one level of resistance. If God worked through me to affect you at a spiritual level, to bring you to Jesus, would you refuse? This is another level of resistance.

capsium · 08/04/2015 15:58

Physically. Typo.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 16:45

when their loved ones expressed faith, that Jesus would heal them.

what I meant is that if jesus heals your brother because you prayed for him that is god not concerning himself with your brothers free will is it, because the brother didn't ask god, you did.

capsium · 08/04/2015 16:56

head But you have no evidence that this was against the (sick) brother's free will. Just that God granted the (well) brother's request and that the (well) brother made an expression of faith.

Free will is usually meant in terms of choosing (to believe in) God or not. It is not free as in being without consequence. So if God chooses to punish (as in the OT) a person who is against Him, it is not against their free will to choose Him or not - they could have repented.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 16:57

by taking advantage of people's knowledge of natural laws and biological mechanisms

what if they have no knowledge of biological mechanisms? How does it still work?

headinhands · 08/04/2015 16:59

But the sick brother hadn't asked god to heal him. The sick brother didn't know the well brother had prayed. Of course he wanted to be well, he was having treatment.

capsium · 08/04/2015 17:01

Eh? You are asking me how western medicine works, head? The knowledge is held by the practitioners (well I would hope so...).

headinhands · 08/04/2015 17:03

Free will is usually meant in terms of choosing (to believe in) God or not. It is not free as in being without consequence. So if God chooses to punish (as in the OT) a person who is against Him, it is not against their free will to choose Him or not - they could have repented.

So the reason god doesn't stop the paedophile?

God drowned everyone in the flood, even babies, how could a baby be against him?. Why would he prevent someone from stealing, like he did with Aquinas, by striking them dead, but allow a paedophile to rape many children? That is immoral too.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 17:04

but the person getting the medicine often has no idea how it works, they don't even need to be conscious for it.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 17:05

I don't understand this spiritual level? What/where is it and how do you know it exists?

capsium · 08/04/2015 17:05

Oh, you are making an example up concerning the brothers head! I thought you were talking in terms of what happened in the NT.

If the brother was healed by western medicine God still could be working through the doctors, could be prompting them to care practically for people, or not - if they don't believe in Him. But western medicine is not usually considered supernatural.

headinhands · 08/04/2015 17:06

So if the person being prayed about needs to want the same thing as you are praying for there is no point praying if someone is attacking you or your child?

capsium · 08/04/2015 17:09

head a spiritual level makes sense to me. Spiritual agent prompting people to act. Thought before action.

Observed in such phenomenon as Zeitgeist, mass media affecting people on a subconscious level for example.