Don't understand some Christianity basics, it's worrying me!

[WonderingMinstrels]

Hi,

NC for this. I have always had a faith in God, but recently I have been struggling with some of the most basic questions of my faith. Why, if God gave humans free will and therefore cannot intercede in the event of evil, does he answer prayer, as surely that is interceding? I understand that prayer will be answered according to God's will, but if a child is being abused, surely that is against God's will?

And if God cannot intercede, what is the point of having the Holy Spirit to guide us? Isn't that just another level of intercession?

When people talk about a relationship with Jesus, is that via following his teachings in the Bible, or by another way?

Sorry for rambling, and being a bit incoherent. It's been a long day, but this stuff is praying on my mind (no pun intended!) and I would love to hear from believers who may be able to shed light on this for me.

He is both rubbish but I suspect that what ever I type will never be able to answer your questions sufficiently. Can we agree to differ and try to help the OP by presenting both sides of the argument?

Geneticsbunny - good plan . You are wise to say there's nothing to be gained by pointless bickering.

He is both rubbish but I suspect that what ever I type will never be able to answer your questions sufficiently.

Yes I expect so!

To answer WonderingMinstrels, have you ever considered the reason it doesn't make sense is that it's not true?

Genuine question.

Soooo back to the OPs questions. Personal relationship with God is partly about the Holy Spirit but also about spending time talking to and listening to God. As niminy said, prayer is not just about asking for things but about chatting to God, thanking him for the things he has given you/ done for you and others and including him in your life. He loves to hear about where we are and what we have been up to in the same way we love to hear what our kids are doing. The more I talk to and listen to God the more aligned I am with him and the easier it is. The relationship develops as you go along. If you see what I mean? Niminy? Sound similar to your experiences?

I follow the teachings of Jesus which is to love others and great them well. I would do this even if I wasnt Christian though.

As for the Old Testament I take the prophecies and Psalms which are beautiful. I also look at Genesis etc as the writings of a people trying to make sense of their world.

I care little what others think of my belief, each to their own. I can listen without ridicule or nastiness to their beliefs (or no belief), I count a good number of atheists among my friends including one very militant atheist who I have some fantastic discussions with. I also have a friend who is a Catholic priest, loves a glass or three of red wine and equally enjoys a good discussion.

I stick with the Gospels mostly.

But we don't have free will, do we? I mean, yes you have free will to abuse a child if you so wish, but then we as a society have taken away that free will by developing a police force and justice system- so why can God not just stop all of the bad stuff at the source, before innocent people get tangled up in it? Also, where does the free will element come in when children die, or huge earthquakes kill hundreds of people? That is the will of no one, except God? Why would God want that? Who does it benefit?

Lots of the Bible is interpretations of ancient writings and there are lots of disagreements among scholars about those interpretations. We cannot therefore simply say "it isn't true", we can only say "is the interpretation correct" and then you are in a whole new topic.

Full and Rubbish the God in my head is more Zeus in the movies, not human and anyway not sure how I or anyone else personifies him / her makes much difference to my faith. Without getting into theological debate in God's defence the West are not doing such a great job at intervening while promoting self determination in World affairs and IMO should pay more attention to the mantra of "first do nno harm".
Also often think about this in terms of how difficult it is to be a parent protecting and bringing out the best in DCs while equipping them to be independent adults.

Yes, Geneticsbunny, that's how it is.

Sometimes I go through a rough patch with God - just like you do in any relationship - when it's not so easy to keep on talking and listening, when the love just doesn't seem to be there any more, when I'm sad or angry and want him to make it all better and he won't.

But all relationships go through bad times, and sticking with them through the bad times strengthens and deepens them. I've learned more and grown more from the times when I kept on praying even though God was silent, when I had nothing to say but 'God, you're a complete bastard', when all I could do with weep than from the times when it is easier.

And from time to time there's a moment of pure joy and the knowledge of grace which is almost too precious to put into words. Like seeing the flash of a kingfisher., or the gleams of first dawn. Those times change your life.

They won't explain why God lets earthquakes kill thousands of people, Hoplikeabunny. The "free will" fudge can't be used there. Unless Planet Earth was also granted free will?

GratefulHead I mean that the whole thing isn't true, that there is no God. If the OP considers that option then she can save herself a lot of time and mental anguish over the role of prayer etc. She can never make sense of that and it seems a shame for her to waste time trying to figure it out.

It's like trying to work out the plot of a TV show where something isn't explicitly explained. Like how the zombie virus originated in The Walking Dead. It's not based on fact, so there is no correct answer, and your own theory/explanation is as valid as anyone's.

Robot if I think of life as a terminal condition and of any particular individual being part of a greater whole then it can give a different perspective on events. Triumph of hope over despair if you will.

So if not a literalist- then what a cherry picker? Full, Cherries are meant to be picked - and savoured. You look at the whole tree, and carefully select the cherries. If you try to eat the leaves and the bark, they will taste awful and you will feel bitter about the whole experience.

The cherries are the product of the whole tree, they couldn't exist without them, but you aren't meant to eat it all.

So much of the bible is best ignored then? How do you decide which bits are good to eat?

That cherry tree thing is a terrible analogy, where did you hear that?!

You can't claim to follow the word of God and the teachings of Jesus then say "but only these ones. He didn't really mean those ones. And these bits, well he didn't mean it to be taken literally."

And can anyone explain why earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunami are allowed to cause death and injury?

Because god is an evil maniac.

Trying to second guess God from our human standpoint is doomed to failure
Romans 11.33

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Earthquakes and bad thing happen because when the children of God rejected him, they lost certain protections and privileges. Deuteronomy 28

Earthquakes and bad thing happen because when the children of God rejected him, they lost certain protections and privileges. Deuteronomy 28

Wait, so God is throwing his toys out of the pram on an EPIC scale, because people a few thousand years ago (quite rightly) questioned him?!

Sorry if the analogy offended you Rubbish, but that's just how it seems to me. I'm no theologian, though I do try to read to understand the context of what I am reading. However, I also weigh up what I read with my own experience, through prayer, and by considering other people's ideas/experiences too.

I do not believe that I can take all the teachings of the Old Testament as literal today. I understand that Hebrew tradition was that scripture should always be read as a multi layered document which can be taken symbolically as well as literally. But yes I can still claim to follow the person of Jesus and to be on a journey of faith, albeit making some wrong turnings along the way and be prepared to discuss whether everything should be taken literally.

After all it's quite possible to follow the word of God literally and not to have a living faith, too, isn't it?

I just started a thread on 'why bad things happen' where people might want to continue this aspect of the conversation so the help the OP asked for here doesn't get totally lost

Oh that was a good idea niminy- I'll head there

I've put a reply to the Deut 28 comment over there as well.

bunny, if there is no free will, why should anyone believe you when you say this? You were just pre-programmed to say this, so it isn't the result of intelligent thinking, surely?

Bad things happen because good things happen (and vice versa).

Anyway, it's also about what comes after this life, surely? I you're an atheist, I can see why you would consider this incompatible with a benevolent God - but remember ... you need to convince the Christians.