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Original poster

Don't understand some Christianity basics, it's worrying me!

75 replies

WonderingMinstrels · 06/04/2015 20:39

Hi,

NC for this. I have always had a faith in God, but recently I have been struggling with some of the most basic questions of my faith. Why, if God gave humans free will and therefore cannot intercede in the event of evil, does he answer prayer, as surely that is interceding? I understand that prayer will be answered according to God's will, but if a child is being abused, surely that is against God's will?

And if God cannot intercede, what is the point of having the Holy Spirit to guide us? Isn't that just another level of intercession?

When people talk about a relationship with Jesus, is that via following his teachings in the Bible, or by another way?

Sorry for rambling, and being a bit incoherent. It's been a long day, but this stuff is praying on my mind (no pun intended!) and I would love to hear from believers who may be able to shed light on this for me.

OP posts:
Original poster
WonderingMinstrels · 06/04/2015 21:06

Anybody there?? Bumpety bump.

OP posts:
KingOfTheBongo · 06/04/2015 22:23

Hi ... I'm RC. I think that God very rarely intercedes (including for prayers).

I wouldn't call the Holy Spirit a form of intercession. It's there if you search for it, but you still make your own decisions.

My relationship with Jesus is important to me. I can spend hours in his spiritual company, wondering what he meant by this or that verse in the Bible, wondering what we would say if he was born today.

Original poster
WonderingMinstrels · 06/04/2015 22:50

Thanks for replying. I too think God rarely intercedes, so it's reassuring to hear someone else say that. I guess the Holy Spirit is truly a comforter then, that maybe helps us to know we're on the right path.

I'm not RC but am leaning increasingly towards it (my baptist MIL is praying against me converting though.........very odd!)

I think I need to spend more time with the Bibke, just to regain my closeness to God. Thanks.

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 06/04/2015 23:14

Hi Wondering, I think maybe you have got two words mixed up - intervene and intercede. Intervening is what God does (or doesn't do) and interceding is what we do when we pray for people (and what Jesus and, if you're an RC, the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints do on our behalf). Intercession is asking God to do something.

I think that God never does something directly that he intends to accomplish through human beings - though of course, we are free to go against what his purposes.

The way I think of it is that God holds all the possible outcomes of all the actions of us all, and works his purposes out in an infinitely slow and patient way - we can't see the patterns, because they're so much larger than us and so much longer-term than our individual lives; and we can't see how the pattern reforms after each of our actions; all we can do is to ask ourselves 'what is God's will in this situation? what would he want me to do? -- that's one of the purposes of prayer, to try and align ourselves to God's will.

I'm pretty sure that it isn't God's will that a child is abused. On the other hand, God made us in his own image, with free will. That means the freedom to do terrible things. And if God were to intervene to stop a child being abused, we wouldn't actually have free will at all.

It's one of those either you have it or you don't things you can't have free will only to do certain things. We have freedom to mess up big time which we do all the time. That's why we need Jesus, to mend our mess, to bring us back to God again, to take on our pain and suffering and to give us hope that one day all the mess, all the pain, all the suffering and injustice will be mended and healed and redeemed. When everything seems dark he's the light. And if it's so dark we can't see any light, he's the hope that somewhere there is light beyond the darkness.

And the Holy Spirit is there to pray with us, to pray in us when we pray; to be our comforter and guide, to help us to know what is the right thing to do, and to help us to do it. When we pray for others, one of the most important ways that God intervenes is to change us, through the power of the Holy Spirit, so that little by little we become the agents of the changes God wants to happen.

Someone said that praying is like getting a sun tan. You lie there, and you think you are doing nothing, and you can't see anything happening. But after a while your skin has changed colour. Prayer is like that: slowly, imperceptibly, it changes us (through the Holy Spirit), so we can go out and help to change the world.

Sorry, that was an essay!

sashh · 07/04/2015 07:17

I think I need to spend more time with the Bibke, just to regain my closeness to God. Thanks.

I'm an atheist. But I think there is some good stuff in the New Testament. I tend to agree with Richard Dawkins about the Old Testament, but I take good stuff from anywhere.

I suggest you read the Gospels rather than the whole Bible, it seems to fit more with modern life (ie no 'abominations' for gay people or eating prawns).

fulltothebrim · 07/04/2015 07:25

Or you could come to the conclusion that is is all rubbish. Made up and untrue.
God is a baby murdering maniac. Why would you want to side with someone who has such a violent temper? Read the bible for evidence of this. If god was human he would be in a secure facility for life.

niminypiminy · 07/04/2015 07:31

I'd recommend the Gospels, too. For Christians they're at the centre of our faith. But I would also recommend the Psalms, the prayer-book of the Old Testament. Psalm 23, of course, and 34 (my favourite), 31 and 77 in hard times, 139 to remind us of God's love for us, 148 as a hymn of praise.

fulltothebrim · 07/04/2015 07:40

Is that the same godwho loved us so much that he wiped out the entire human population except a few on a wooden boat? He sounds delightful.

mummytime · 07/04/2015 07:43

The Prayer thing - there is a very wide gamut of opinion theologically on this: from the "God finds me a parking spot" evangelical, to the "by prayer we are aligning our will with God" and others I'm sure. Prayer doesn't have to be asking for things. Prayer can be two way - you pray about something and sometimes how you think and feel can change. Prayer doesn't have to be well thought out - it can be "I don't know what to think"," I'm upset at this news", "How can such things happen" and so on. It can also just be "Thank you". Sometimes a liturgy (as in RC or C of E etc.) can be helpful.

Before you go RC - maybe try High Church Anglican - can be very similar theology. Might be more acceptable to MIL.

Following Jesus - can trying to live by the simple precepts in the bible. Start with the two commandments of Jesus (basically: love God, and love your neighbour as yourself).
This is where prayer helps, as just praying about something can sometimes help you sort out your motivation

The idea that "we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" can also help in self-forgiveness, sometimes.

A lot of the language of Christianity (and other religions) can seem hard, as they are using pictures to try and explain something which is hard to explain. A bit like trying to explain a sunset to someone who is blind, or give you precise instructions on how to walk.

VikingVolva · 07/04/2015 07:47

'If god was human'

Well, that shows no knowledge of even religion 101. No human, that's the whole point.

sashh this may be a bit presumptuous to query your self-identification, but you sound agnostic (not atheist).

howabout · 07/04/2015 07:49

I believe we are made in God's image at least in relation to our ability to think. I also believe we have free will. I understand the Bible, prayer and worship as being tools to inform our thinking as individuals and communities so that our approach to life is more in keeping with God's plan and that is the "answer" to prayer I would seek. I do not believe the Gospels can be understood without the Old Testament and indeed many of the parables and even the life of Jesus are explanations of prophecies and concepts of the Old Testament. That said I read the Old Testament as I would read Greek or Roman literature and myths and am not that interested in its literal context. I actually have more of a problem with the Pauline letters but view them within the context of the communities they were written for.

Nice to be asked so thoughtfully to have a go at putting my thoughts down on this!

PeppermintCrayon · 07/04/2015 07:52

I believe God can nudge people but they may not take notice.

Jesus really hated child abuse, this is made clear in the gospels.

fulltothebrim · 07/04/2015 07:54

viking- I know a good deal about christianity. So god is beyond reproach?
And why not compare him to a human? We are made in his image. So we must mirror his traits.

Killing babies. murdering people, being angry, jealous and vengeful is OK for him but not us? He sounds a nasty guy.
Even more worrying is anyone who wants to be on the team of such a nut case.

KingOfTheBongo · 07/04/2015 08:54

full, you sound like a literalist, which usually means that you know close to nothing about it

Geneticsbunny · 07/04/2015 08:57

Niminypiminy I couldn't have put it better myself. That is exactly the way I see it too.

fulltothebrim · 07/04/2015 09:02

So if not a literalist- then what a cherry picker?

RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 07/04/2015 09:09

"I'm pretty sure that it isn't God's will that a child is abused. On the other hand, God made us in his own image, with free will. That means the freedom to do terrible things. And if God were to intervene to stop a child being abused, we wouldn't actually have free will at all."

So he could stop it, but won't? He would rather sit back and allow a child to be abused than to temporarily remove free will from the abuser?

And God is supposed to be loving?

Or if he wants to stop it but can't because humans have free will, that means he is not omnipotent. So which quality is it that he doesn't have - benevolence or omnipotence?

fulltothebrim · 07/04/2015 09:13

"giving" people free will isn't really free will is it?

fulltothebrim · 07/04/2015 09:14

God sounds a nasty nutter.
Even more worrying is that people choose to worship a nasty nutter.

Geneticsbunny · 07/04/2015 09:15

All sin is abhorant to god so he is as horrified by a lie as he is by child abuse. If he removed free will when people signed he would have to do it for all sins.

Geneticsbunny · 07/04/2015 09:16

Why are you so aggressively anti Other people's beliefs full?

niminypiminy · 07/04/2015 09:22

fulltothebrim, you might be interested to know that in the Old Testament, mentions of love outnumber those of hate by 4 to 1 and those of anger by more than 2 to 1. The mentions of peace and of anger are roughly equal. If you are going to accuse other people of cherry-picking, be sure that you have looked at the whole picture yourself.

If you give someone something, can you then get it back? The nature of a gift is that once you've given it it belongs to the person you've given it to, for them to do as they like with. God gives us free will knowing that we'll mess up. But free will is also what enables us to do amazing things.

Robot, God is omnipotent, but he won't break his own rules. He won't interfere with the operation of free will. But he loves us and will never give up on us, and will never turn his back on our efforts to do better and to change, and he is always there trying draw us to him. That's his benevolence.

RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 07/04/2015 09:23

So he's neither benevolent or omnipotent then, Geneticsbunny!

RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 07/04/2015 09:24

*nor

RubbishRobotFromTheDawnOfTime · 07/04/2015 09:27

He won't/can't break his own rules
He will let people do terrible things to other innocent people
He won't/can't prevent natural disasters from killing thousands of people

So not all powerful. And not good.