Religion is good because it gives the believer an objective and absolute standard of morality

[Vivacia]

(This idea was introduced in another thread, but it felt like an unfair tangent for that thread to be taking in my humble opinion, but one I'd be interested in discussing).

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the statement.

Secondly, I feel as an atheist I have an objective morality, if not an absolute one.

I don't think anyone has an 'objective' morality unless you simply mean following all societies laws and codes of behaviour

There's no such thing as intrinsic morality

Have to go and do something else for a while, so don't have time to write at length, but in my post, at least, on the other thread I didn't say that there is an objective and absolute standard of morality. I said that God is the absolute and objective standard of good - which is a different thing. Christian ethics depends on good being absolute rather than relative, but that doesn't make Christian ethics absolute and objective in themselves.

I think the point being made is that religion (in this case Christianity I think) gives you an objective morality.

As an atheist I would describe my morality as "objective" in that it is considered, thought-out and based upon evidence.

niminy thanks for joining in here! And clarifying your position.

God is the absolute and objective standard of good but how do you know what that means for you, living as a Christian?

I mean, how do you know what your god defines as "good"?

What Christians have are a set of resources in scripture and tradition that can be brought to bear on ethical issues. Secular ethics in the 21st century tend to focus to the principal of autonomy or rights based ethics or utilitarianism (greatest good for the greatest number.)

Christians can take an issue such as assisted dying and ask what scripture says about the valuing of life and protection of those at the margins of society which are not there for the secular ethicist. The two groups may come up with the same decision but for different reasons.

That sounds as though your quoting from a book on ethics.

Oh for goodness' sake, "your"!?

God (to a Christian) is not the standard of good.

God is good (like a chocolate chip cookie is yummy and not made of yumminess)

All my own words

Laurie yes you are right - "God is good (like a chocolate chip cookie is yummy and not made of yumminess)" - I am so going to nick that line!

All my own words Cool!

What are your thoughts on morality and religion?

"God is good (like a chocolate chip cookie is yummy and not made of yumminess)"

Well, only in certain situations. At other times it's hard to see the good in that god.

Vivacia?

Yes?

Lots of atheists in the UK are very strongly influenced by Christianity in their moral outlook. Religion can subtly influence non believers because many come from culturally christian backgrounds. Religious teachings can be a starting point for ethnics even if you just view them as a mere set of ideas. Christians do not have a monopoly on Jesus' ideas and teaching.

Do religions give an absolute and objective morality is a difficult question. Some religions like Islam are very prescriptive. Christianity is nowhere near as prescriptive as Islam or Judaism. Even the strictest of religions are open to interpretation.

Ethics change as societies evolve. For example very few people see sex before marriage as a terrible sin.

Sorry, which God?

I realised I didn't actually ask you a question

A religion can be decidedly bad if its believers think that it gives them 'an objective and absolute standard of morality', but that 'morality' is at odds with basic ethical standards (eg racial and sexual equality).

Equality of sexes or people with a different skin colour is a fairly modern opinon in the UK. I am not sure there is such a thing as basic ethical standards. There is no clear way of defining what is a basic ethical standard and what is cultural.

That's one of the reasons why the monotheistic religions were so revolutionary: because they did define basic ethical standards that applied to everyone, something that other ancient religions simply did not do. Judaism, Christianity and later Islam were unique in the high standards of behaviour they demanded from their adherents, and the fact that they applied these standards to all regardless of their station in society.

Furthermore, the monotheistic religions, particularly Christianity, developed an ethic of the absolute value of each person in the eyes of God which formed the basis of our current ideas about the rights of the individual, sexual and racial equality, and the importance of self-determination.

I'm not sure my morality is any weaker for being subjective. In fact is argue it's stronger.

Also I am intrinsically motivated to "be good" not extrinsically and all evidence shows intrinsic motivations are stronger and people with them less likely to "fail".

museumum: how would you know that you are intrinsically motivated to be good? does that mean that you received no moral teaching from your family, from school and from other sources? do you have some objective measure that you are better at 'being good' than other people?

Christians have a word for 'instrinsic motivation': we call it conscience. Conscience is the internal voice that tells you when you are doing something wrong. But Christians have a much more realistic idea of the operation of conscience - we know that it is easy for people not to listen to this voice, and for the voice to get weaker and weaker.

We know that 'being good' often means going against what we'd like to do (do I really want to go round to my see my smelly neighbour and spend an hour listening to her talk about people I've never met or would I rather spend that time doing something I want to do? you bet!), and that doing the right thing is often a matter of discipline rather than preference, and of practice rather than disposition. And we are realistic about the extent to which we will fail, and fail, and fail again - partly because the practice of examining your conscience should show you how often you fall short of your standards.

niminy - that's a very good explanation of 'conscience' except that it is exactly how many non-christian (including atheistic) people would see it.

I think it's stupid to think the Abrahaic religions have better morality than polytheistic religions like Hinduism, buddhism or paganism. There is no doubt that the historical record of the behaviour of those who follow monotheism is pretty appauling. People who believe in reincarnation are often kinder to animals. Social action is not exclusive christian either.