Have you ever seen a ghost?

[BCBG]

Serious question - have you ever seen a ghost? If so, why are you certain about what you saw? Could it have been a natural phenomenon? I ask because something I saw is preying on my mind. I was driving through a village on the East Sussex border one afternoon last year, thinking of God knows what, radio on, when all of a sudden the car filled with the smell of fuel (which makes me feel ill ). I then realised a plane was flying very low left to right across the road, so low that I thought it would crash. I couldn't see any markings on the plane but I remember the shape very clearly. I don't remember whether or not there was any noise, but I was so shocked I brought the car to a standstill and looked back across the road. I realised that to my right the land fell away very sharply, so it would have been possible for a plane to fly over me and then clear the trees heading off over the valley (i think) except that I couldn't see any plane. I honestly stood there and listened for an impact. I could still smell this incredible odour of aviation fuel (like when you are crossing the tarmac sometimes on a small airport and the wind catches you, only much stronger). Never thought about ghosts before, but I still wonder what exactly I saw that day.

No. I once thought I saw the grim reaper but it turned out to be something totally different with a completely logical explanation.

I get that people can often have strong beliefs one way or the other on this. But I notice that those that do believe are not hostile or nasty towards those that don't. It's a real shame some of those that don't believe cannot extend the same courtesy.

This is not a situation where anyone is hawking goods or services to take advantage of grieving family members. This is a simple discussion. If you don't believe, it would be helpful if you could at least remain civil and not resort to calling people stupid or uneducated. Being nasty and aggressive is just not necessary and just plain mean-spirited. (yes, I know, I couldn't resist that )

Seriously though - if you don't believe in some of the religions or other things on MN, do you tromp through every one of those threads and ridicule the posters? I would say you likely do feel superior to those that believe in ghosts (especially as you called them uneducated), which makes you feel entitled to stomp all over them verbally. How sad for you that you cannot simply allow others to believe what they will without feeling threatened in some way.

This is not a situation where anyone is hawking goods or services to take advantage of grieving family members. This is a simple discussion

You could say the same about people being racist online.

It's a cog in a dangerous wheel. Failure to challenge supernatural bullshit leads to people accepting it, and then it's a short step to psychics and worse. It's not harmless. Children get murdered because their stupid parents believe they are inhabited by evil spirits. It's all interrelated.

It's utter bollocks, and dangerous bollocks at that.

Oh FFS. Because someone believing they saw something a bit woo will make the world stop turning.

You don't get to decide what people do and don't believe in.

You don't get to decide what people do and don't believe in.

And you don't get to decide what I think is dangerous claptrap.

What TTWK said.

I have not once attacked your beliefs. I simply asked you to stop being so aggressive and rude.

Clearly it was lost on you.

I have never seen anything but my Mum had a weird experience that can't be explained (she is very rational).

Her brother died very young (40's of a sudden fatal heart attack) and he had no symptoms or other attacks beforehand. On the night before he died my Mum woke up to see her mother (who had died years before) sitting on the bed crying. At dawn that day my Mum got the phone call about her brother. Explain that....

I can totally understand the desire to be aggressive and rude about daft beliefs . I generally resist the impulse to rant at people about their woo beliefs, but I am ranting inside. It's just so irritating. I mean, don't people think that it's a bit odd that in spite of many, many attempts through history, nobody has once managed convincingly to actually prove their existence?

I have not once attacked your beliefs.

Yes you did, you said:

Oh FFS. Because someone believing they saw something a bit woo will make the world stop turning.

You clearly attacked by belief that other's belief in ghosts and woo is the thin end of a cancerous wedge.

I'm not sure if I have. Tbh, I can't bring myself to believe in them because I've always thought that if you have to believe in something then it's not real. You don't believe in a table, do you? It's just there.

Rented an attic flat back in my student days. The living room was a large square with a little corridor bit towards the kitchen, where the window was. Hard to explain, but anyway the window was right by the kitchen doorway.
|W----|
| |
| |
S| |
|___|
Something like that and the window didn't reflect on the wall marked S because it was set to the side iyswim. TV was by the window so nothing from there either.

Used to see human sized and shaped shadows walking across S wall to the main landing, which had no windows. Can't have been my imagination because my 2 cats used to watch them too and would sometimes jump up at them.

I have no idea what they were but, as I said, I really don't believe in ghosts and I don't dwell on it. I'd like to know what they were though .

Picture didn't work! Never mind.

Her brother died very young (40's of a sudden fatal heart attack) and he had no symptoms or other attacks beforehand. On the night before he died my Mum woke up to see her mother (who had died years before) sitting on the bed crying. At dawn that day my Mum got the phone call about her brother. Explain that....

Confirmation bias. Your mother had a dream that she saw her mother on the bed crying. She may well have had many similar dreams about her mother but never recalled them, because nothing happened afterwards to trigger her memory.

But because this dream was closely followed by her brother's death, suddenly she associated more meaning to it. The combination of the dream and her grief over her brother (confirmation bias has been scientifically proven to have a greater effect when the person is emotional) meant she imagined the dream was real, and she actually saw her mother on the bed.

That's an explanation.

Another explanation is that your mother, overcome with grief, imagined the whole thing. Or even made it up deliberately. Grief makes people do odd things.

There's 3 rational explanations. My money is on confirmation bias.

A harmless glass of wine at dinner is the thin end of the malignant wedge of alcoholism. Having a chocolate bar with a cup tea can lead to obesity. Keeping an eye on calorie intake can lead to disordered eating. But must of the time it doesn't.

You quoted my post TTWK, but you still haven't explained how posting racist and homophobic views are similar to a thread recounting ghost stories.

That's hardly an attack on your beliefs. You're reaching quite a bit on that.

It's pretty obvious you're far too invested in this. I am still quite firmly on the fence on this subject, but I get very weary of people bullying others because they feel they know better.

You carry on with the aggressive behaviour if you feel the need, I guess. I have better things to do with my time. Like watching the paint dry on the sideboard I've just painted.

Perhaps those attacking would like to explain how three adults, one our vicar, can watch a small China jug literally fly off a shelf and land 8' away on the stone floor and not break?
The jug went at 45° from the dresser shelf, not straight ahead, it was on a 8" wide shelf and behind another jug.
We were sitting talking, facing the dresser.
The vicar was there to discuss a exorcism because of the hideous things going on in the house prior to contacting the Canon who would conduct the service (and did, two days later)

That is interesting TWWK. Possibly explains it.

She went to visit her Mum's old house afterwards and the family that lived there said that their children had seen a kind old lady sitting in a chair (she died in that spot).

Of course those attacking won't be interested in explaining that nonnainglese they'll just be rude and aggressive towards you.

I'm a genetic scientist. I don't believe in anything even remotely 'woo'. I believe we are all nothing but big bags of DNA, we come into the world through a particular process and when we die, we die. There is no such thing as an afterlife, as heaven, as ghosts, as spirit or as a soul.

HOWEVER, I have trouble reconciling this with the fact that I am becoming increasingly convinced I am being followed through life by a ghost.

I think I picked up this ghost in a flat that I lived in about seven years ago when my electrical equipment used to turn itself on and off randomly.
When I moved house completely different electrical stuff (i.e. the lights, not just stuff I owned) used to do the same thing.
In this second house, one day I noticed one of the slats of the vertical blind swinging even though there wasn't a draft or breeze. I stopped it swinging but straight away it carried on and didn't stop for a few days. I only noticed it stopped when me and DH were having a conversation about ghosts.
When we first moved into our current house, in the dead centre of the living room on the day we moved was a hand-written note saying 'Hello' that hadn't been there when we'd been to the house the day before to check it over. There was no furniture, no drafts, no open windows so now way it could have gotten there. We also had the locks changed the week before so only us had keys.
Since we've lived here, the loft hatch has been left ever so slightly ajar on two occasions but it wasn't DH as neither of us can get in the loft- high ceilings, no ladder tall enough.
Last weekend we were chatting in the living room and I said something about a 'Jewish ghost' (long story) and at that very same moment our kitchen door slammed shut which it has never ever done before and couldn't have done on its own with no windows open and no drafts.

So, I haven't actually SEEN a ghost but I'm getting increasingly convinced of their existence

I accept that many unusual things do have rational explanations - particularly high or low frequencies can affect vision and mood. The human brain is programmed to 'see' faces in patterns/random objects (seeing faces in clouds/foliage). It is easy to attribute coincidences to random events, or to connect things after an event has occurred.

However, I've also seen things for which I don't have a rational explanation. I would never dismiss the concept of a ghost as completely impossible, as there is much we do not understand; science makes new discoveries every day.

Of course those attacking won't be interested in explaining that nonnainglese they'll just be rude and aggressive towards you.

Not really, but I think it was some kind of set up. Either physical trickery or mind games. You have a vicar, a discussion about exorcism. The very fact that you are open to a vicar coming round to discuss exorcism shows that you are vulnerable and susceptible to believing nonsense.

They type of individual who would even consider having a vicar round to discuss an exorcism, and then go ahead with it, is not someone I would treat as a credibly or reliable witness to any event.

And if that offends anyone, well so be it.

Also Dionne and Alice, I rest my case. We've moved from "harmless" woo to exorcism of a property in a heartbeat. Next step, exorcism of a child.

That's why I fight this crap so vociferously.

Oddly enough I've been called in by atheists when there was stuff happening at their property that they could not explain. They were a bit embarrassed about it but it was a fairly run of the mill call.

For information, in the C of E, the exorcism of a person needs permission from a bishop. It is very rarely done and is covered in all sorts of safeguarding and multi agency working which includes psychiatrists and therapists. I doubt it is ever done with a child. I used to know a retired exorcist. He said that of the 100 calls he received 99 could be explained away such as night terrors. I've always wondered about that one that couldn't but he wouldn't be drawn on it.

For information, in the C of E, the exorcism of a person needs permission from a bishop.

Oh, that's ok then. Good to know someone with such a firm handle on the rational world is overseeing it.

Yes, its good that it's being taken seriously, but not dramatically.

" I would never dismiss the concept of a ghost as completely impossible, as there is much we do not understand; science makes new discoveries every day."

Yes, science does make new discoveries every day. None of these discoveries has ever been "oh, look, something supernatural"