Hakluyt's Voyages.......

[Hakluyt]

........just in case anyone fancies continuing them.

We were, I think, discussing the issue around dating dinosaur bones........among other things.

Oh I didn't need to make that point since you actually said it. We will not even have the choice to sin because there is no sin in heaven

Back, have you told a lie?
Have you stolen anything, ever?
Have you ever had a lustful thought?

If you say yes to these three questions then that makes you a liar, a thief, and an adulterer.

God is a Holy God and these sins cannot go unpunished. No one is holy like God, we all transgress. We are equal when we stand before Him at judgement day. There is not one single person who will escape His righteous judgement.

You say it's a fancy way to say we can't choose but you missed where I said we have made a one-off choice to trust in Him (for eternal life; and not of our own works). That one-off choice seals a person 'until the day of redemption' and it is irrevocable.

In the same way to deny Jesus is Lord and go our own way in rebellion against Him, leads to our destruction which is also irrevocable once we are dead.

The difficult part of this choice malarkey is that everyone makes plans for tomorrow, but not everyone wakes up tomorrow. We just don't know when our time is up and most of us assume we will live to be a ripe old age as get plenty of warning that we're about to die, so we can think about it then. But it doesn't always work out that way. That's why God says "choose you THIS day, whom you will serve" (God or satan).

I also wanted to clear up any potential misunderstanding about the free gift of God being irrevocable - a Christian who sins definitely gets punished for it. God makes it quite clear that punishments range from all manner of things including even death, but the eternal life itself is irrevocable. Once you are sealed you can't be unsealed. Otherwise it is about your own works and not a free gift after all.

If God ends a Christian life prematurely then the person goes to heaven, but then would have regrets that they had been foolish and not lived according to God's requirements, and would lose out of rewards. But they would not go to hell.

And not ALL premature deaths of christians are automatically because of a punishment by God, in just the way that people mistakenly claim sickness must be a direct result of misbehaving. Terrible bible-study for a person to believe that way!

Sorry that's still not working. Either you have free will in heaven or you don't. A free will choice to go there isn't the same thing.

And if you don't have free will there then you are a puppet and not a person. You (and just about every other christian) say god will never do that to people. That's the excuse for all the bad things that happen 'god won't turn us into robots as that would be wrong'

But it's suddenly ok to do it in heaven?

Nope. Just a plot hole big enough to drive a bus through.

If God ends a Christian life prematurely

That's another admission. Remember all the Christian arguments that death and disease are not god's fault. That he doesn't cause them, but just allows us to live our lives as we see fit.

Well you just threw that one out. If it's ok for god to interfere at all and kill one person then it must be ok to save people from natural disasters.

So either he doesn't exist or he doesn't care (or possibly enjoys watching people die)

I don't see how we would choose to sin if there is no unclean thing in heaven as we saw in Revelations.

But equally, we are not told anywhere that our ability to choose will be removed.

So if you decide that is the case then YOU are making that one up yourself, let's be clear about that.

And as for God taking life - the only reason you and I are alive today is because God has not finished with us. The bible tells us our days are numbered (and known only by God) and He knows the time for us to die.

There are also examples in the bible of believers dying early because of direct disobedience to God.

However if God removed everyone prematurely because of direct disobedience then the whole world would be suddenly empty wouldn't it? There is not one single person who has done no wrong. You still haven't answers my question about whether you've lied, stolen or lusted after anyone, but assuming your silence is admission then you're a liar, a thief and an adulterer, remember? So if your ideas were followed correctly then you'd have to die right now too.

Only the part you're forgetting is God is "slow to anger and quick to forgive". He alone is our judge because He alone is Holy.

We might have lots of ideas about how Go should run his business but if you stood 100 people in the same room and asked them how they'd conduct God's business they would not agree. We even argue about such things in politics: do we have capital punishment or not, for example.

Remember YOU are made in God's image and for Him, not the other way round!

I suspect if you have a partner then you would want him to WANT to be in a relationship with you and live under the same roof, rather than be forced into it against his will.

Absolutely. And there is no threat over him. There is no risk of eternal pain if he decides he doesn't want me anymore. If there was, whoever it was from then his being in the relationship would not be a free choice.

Remember all the Christian arguments that death and disease are not god's fault.
It is true that sin brought death, decay and disease upon us, but God is still in charge. It's a bit like saying "it's not fair I live in prison for stealing, it must be God's fault that I'm in prison, I blame Him." We, actually it's not His fault, that's true. You brought it on yourself by stealing because it had to go punished and you knew that. If you hadn't stolen you wouldn't be locked up - it's your fault, not God's! But sometimes God sends people to prison longer or sooner, either way, He is still in control. You can be sure He won't turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, but the bible says some people appear to be getting away with it; God says they absolutely won't, but that He is the judge, not us!

That he doesn't cause them, but just allows us to live our lives as we see fit.
Jesus said "in this world you WILL have troubles" - there was no attempt to pretend anything different.

However, God can and does intervene. That's what prayer is for, or part of it at any rate. He has a perfect Will, and a permissive Will. You may be familiar with the story of Ninevah? Jonah was instructed to tell the Ninevites they are heading for judgement (premature death) if they continue in their rebellion against God. God's perfect Will was that they follow Him, but when they CHOSE not to, He said He would bring judgement. However He warned them first, out of mercy, offering forgiveness if they turned.

They turned back to God and God's permissive Will was for them to be spared from the judgement of death that they deserved.

There is another well known story about a woman knocking on the door repeatedly. God was saying "ask continuously" and "don't give up", and there are countless stories of people approaching God with their requests for help.

Some requests are in conflict with God's perfect Will, some He allows with His permissive Will. Only God knows the reason, our job is to "make our requests known to Him, in prayer and supplication" Philippians 4:6.

the only reason you and I are alive today is because God has not finished with us.

why does he finish with people in Africa so quickly? And yet takes his time to finish with us, here in the west, with access to medical care?

our job is to "make our requests known to Him, in prayer and supplication" Philippians 4:6.

why does he grant the requests of people in the west with access to medical care, but not starving children in Africa?

"However, God can and does intervene. That's what prayer is for,"

so god wouldn't intervene unless we prayed about it? Either prayer is pointless or god is sick and will watch someone suffering because no one asked him to stop it.

And not ALL premature deaths of christians are automatically because of a punishment by God,

Ahh, so SOME premature christian deaths are because of punishment by God? Why does god mete out so much punishment by premature death to christians in Africa, and not so much over here in the west where we have access to medical care?

Headinhands:

Well of course you might think he'd live in eternal anguish if he left you for another woman!

But seriously, if you don't want a robot relationship why on earth would you expect God to want that?

You say "under threat" but actually all warnings given by God are out of love and concern that you would chose Him and not receive full judgement for your sins for being a liar, adulterer, blasphemer and a thief. You haven't denied any of these so I take it you agree you are those things? Why should you get away with it? If someone breaks into your house and steals your prized possessions and torches your house should they get away with it?

As for starving Africans. You do like that one, don't you? You seem to get it out of the bag quite often. Two things, people in THIS country die of malnourishment too you know, and conversely not everyone in Africa dies of malnutrition either. So let's not try to make it overly emotive, shall we?

So you seem to think that starving is a special suffering that God should seek to remove from this earth, even though He's made it clear that "in this world you will have trouble" and that the reason there is such suffering is bedside sin entered the world.

If everyone in the west gave up all their cars, phone and computers and gave the money to starving African children perhaps no one would die of starvation? But you don't do you? And neither doesn't anyone else. So if there is someone to blame maybe it is all of us and not God.

He alone is our judge because He alone is Holy.

Ahh, but he expected your morals to be effective enough before you were a christian to decide he was the right god, and decide he was good? How are we to think he is good without knowing for ourselves independently from god* what good is/was? Let me explain clearly, god knew that you would have to decide he was good before you had the holy spirit, so he knows that you are capable of recognising goodness without god, and that's what I do :)

Headinhands your argument for people dying early in Africa is full of holes. Young people die in this country too.

And you make two other flimsy assumptions: one is that no help is given to Africa, so I wonder why the recent Ebola outbreak has had people sent out there to help bring it under control then?

Also you assume they turn to God in their suffering. Many don't. They seem to turn to witchcraft an awful lot instead. So it could be argued they aren't asking God for help. Some do I am sure, but equally I have no donut many don't. Just like you see in the West.

Head - you don't use your morals to decide God is true! Where DID you cook that one up from?

Also we are all born with the knowledge of God - the bible says that we are therefore without excuse!

And you make two other flimsy assumptions: one is that no help is given to Africa, so I wonder why the recent Ebola outbreak has had people sent out there to help bring it under control then?

So if that help is inspired by God, is it that he only cares about things that scare people in the West, rather than the diseases and conditions that kill so many more people? Why does God give (mostly white) westerners so much more time and so many more opportunities, culturally, to accept/find/whatever him, while (mostly black) Africans have so little when you look at the overall numbers?

Also we are all born with the knowledge of God - the bible says that we are therefore without excuse!

Where does it go then? Why does a Hindu child not retain their knowledge of a Christian God?

Head - you don't use your morals to decide God is true! Where DID you cook that one up from?

How did you decide then? I assume at some point you decided god was good, and that it would have been before you had the Holy Spirit otherwise it wasn't your free will was it. At some point you used your own stand alone standard of morality to decide that god was good. And god knew that your stand alone morality would work well enough to decide he was good. He thought it so good that he trusted you to be able to use your own morality to make such an important and life or death decision about faith.

Also you assume they turn to God in their suffering. Many don't. They seem to turn to witchcraft an awful lot instead.

So they turn to a religion they have bee indoctrinated into, and because of this god doesn't help them. Imagine you stumble across a drowning child. Imagine you watch them drown because they don't know your name. That's the scenario you have portrayed. A god who doesn't act because flawed humans don't know him. I just can't worship that god it's not moral, It's despicable to not help people because they got your name wrong or thought someone else would help them.

Jassy,

A lot of help goes to Africa. just one website listing 84 charities for Africa

However the government is corrupt and much of the aid is often intercepted by greedy people who should be helping their own. Again, a problem caused by man's sin and not God. BBC News: African aid Corruption

We see from the following link that Christianity is very much available to Africans. Whether they take that option or not is their choice, just like it is in the West. Some do, some don't.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Africa

The Hindu child point you raised was covered earlier in this post, only it was a Muslim child not a Hindu one. But it was the same point and is covering old ground.

The point is, whether child or adult, whether Hindu or Muslim, Every one has knowledge of God and is without excuse. That knowledge may start as a disillusionment, knowing that there is more to it or perhaps a deeper understanding of wrongdoing and the burden of guilt. Or perhaps simply in awe at the amazing creation and knowing it can't have got itself there by accident. Any inner openness to God is responded with further revealing of Himself. 'Seek and you shall find' is a promise.

Don't forget, there was a time when everyone on the earth knew God (Adams and Eve, or Noah and his family) but over time some rebelled and made their false gods (Hinduism, Islam) instead.

*As for starving Africans. You do like that one, don't you? You seem to get it out of the bag quite often. Two things, people in THIS country die of malnourishment too you know, and conversely not everyone in Africa dies of malnutrition either. So let's not try to make it overly emotive, shall we?

People in this dying in this country doesn't make any difference to the point I am making because it's to do with the numbers. People with access to medical care have far better life spans then those without. That's what makes the difference. There is nothing to suggest there is a god pulling any strings. If there is why does it make on difference to the statistics? And you're right, it is emotive, and that's why people give to charity and find images of children starving deeply upsetting and moving and if you were a loving supernatural god you'd have to do something. To my mind a loving god would be moved, as I am, how can a god who is morally superior to me watch starving children and do nothing? Thankfully there is nothing to suggest the god you believe in is real, thankfully there is no god watching it unmoved, at least not a loving god. Any god that does exist isn't interested in us. And doesn't care about us being interested in him.

God drowned the whole earth once so he is quite happy to affect free will and intervene. Maybe he only does it for bad stuff. Maybe it's god starving them! He definitely doesn't have much time for people with brown skin

Headinhands,

You ask how I knew.

You're right the Holy Spirit had not sealed me because that happens the moment you first "believe in Him" (John 3:16 "for God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that who ever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life".

From an atheist point of view, I read a lot about evolution and found it just had too many flaws when examined closely, and actually seemed equally as unbelievable as any religion.

I knew the religious exposure I had was wrong. I assumed everyone thinks you have to be good to get to heaven, and I knew everyone makes mistakes, some worse than others, so saw that as a flaw too.

I didn't believe in God but I didn't believe in evolution either, but back then evolution wasn't as big as it is now. I didn't really know what I thought about origins, I suppose I just didn't allow myself to think about it and kept busy instead.

I was reasonably happy despite having my fair share of life's problems, and was fiercely independent, so just trundled along for many years.

Eventually I stumbled across something new and decided to check it out for myself. It was the john 3:16 verse and I noticed it said "believe" and not "whosoever is a good person", or "whosoever gets the highest grades" or "whosoever is baby baptised". When I studied the word 'believe' I saw it meant to 'trust in' and 'rely upon' with 'full assurance'.

It was about believing God is who He says He is, the same as trusting that my GP is who he says he is. I look at his credentials on the door and on his ID badge and I believe they are true. With God I see his attributes are consistent within the bible, and the more I studied the bible the more I saw how each book compliments the other, despite being written by different people at different times. You couldn't easily achieve that even if you tried.

What I had misinterpreted to be contradictions were actually my failure to have studied it out and we all know what happens when you leap to conclusions without getting the right context. With study the right context was completely different.

I was studying for a degree at the time so the last thing I needed was to study something else at the same time, but when I saw the message of undeserved grace I was compelled to dig deeper. A free gift with no strings attached? How could anyone pretending to follow God miss that? It made more sense than any religion or belief, or even unbelief, than I had ever encountered.

And the fact that it's the oldest religious text, with some many archeological and prophetic accuracies - and none that are inaccurate - stood the bible apart from any other book I had read.

So I didn't make my choice over which God to follow by using my morals. It's true that God gives us an inbuilt conscience, but even with that we let ourselves down and even break our own morals. It is our lack of ability to follow morals that leads us to need a saviour in the first place.