Hakluyt's Voyages.......

[Hakluyt]

........just in case anyone fancies continuing them.

We were, I think, discussing the issue around dating dinosaur bones........among other things.

Has Pickled abandoned us?

It's possible I could let you down because I'm human, but God doesn't abandon even the most heart-hearted rebel. He keeps nudging, He is the God of second chances. However, I do have a life, and a busy one at that; so can't always get online to debate the world and it's origins with you.

Regarding the Pope who has publically stated that he does not believe in the literal history of Genesis: it’s a sad truth that so many people today reject the history recorded in the Bible.

No one apart from the Pope can say where he stands with God. Being the Pope doesn't save him; believing "In HIM" does. The word “heretic” is reserved for one who denies an essential-to-salvation issue, and shouldn’t be used carelessly. But this doesn’t make the Pope's position suddenly rational or biblical. He’s in the wrong.

You could argue that we never find Jesus calling someone a heretic because they interpreted an Old Testament story figuratively when it was supposed to be read literally or vice-versa. Of course, there are no examples of anyone coming to Christ with the notion that Genesis is merely figurative. That is a modern absurdity; the Jews all knew that Genesis was written as literal history.

But there were people at the time of Christ’s earthly ministry who interpreted God’s Word in an unbiblical way to match common opinions at the time. The term that Jesus used for those who distorted the clear teaching of His Word was “hypocrite.” The Pharisees and scribes had their individual interpretations of Scripture, and Jesus sharply rebuked them for not taking the text in a straightforward fashion.

Consider what Christ says in Matthew 15:3-9. The Pharisees and scribes interpreted the Scriptures in such a way as to match their belief that they shouldn’t have to take care of their elderly parents if they instead gave the money to the temple. Did Jesus accept that as an acceptable interpretation of the text? No! Some interpretations are simply unbiblical and wrong – and Jesus knew it. He rightly accused these religious leaders of transgressing the commandment of God for the sake of their tradition. Look at the basic structure of the rebuke in verses 4-6: “For God said [one thing]… But you say [something else]. You hypocrites!” So modern traditions, like evolution, that are contrary to God’s Word are exactly the same.

Jesus took Genesis as literal history. He affirmed the literal history of Adam and Eve (Matthew 19:4-5), Abel (Matthew 23:35), Noah and the flood (Matthew 24:37-38), Abraham (John 8:56, 58), Isaac (Luke 13:28), and Jacob (Luke 13:28) – all of which are recorded in the history of Genesis.

If Jesus was wrong about all that, then you could ask whether it really make sense for Him to be God. And if Jesus was wrong about matters of history, you could as whether it make sense to trust Him on spiritual matters at all. It really seems hypocritical for christians to try and cherry pick whatever suits them from the bible and throw the rest out.

In John 3:12, Jesus puts it very well in saying, “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”

But when the Pope, or anyone else for that matter, rejects the history of Genesis, he is effectively rejecting the creator's message to us, and substituting his own. No wonder the Church is in trouble if its members reject what God’s Word teaches about origins, and substitute their own ideas instead.

Yes they may proclaim they love God or try to follow Him, but does loving God mean we are to cast aside His Holy Word or distort it to match modern secular ideas like evolution? Is it loving to our neighbour to encourage him to believe something so desperately wrong and contrary to Christianity as evolution? Jesus said, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word” (John 14:15). And that necessarily includes the literal history of Genesis.

I think it's fairly safe to say that you don't want to know; historically we see people who professed to be eager to "know" the truth, denied Jesus was the Messiah. They watched his miracles and said He must be of the devil. They hardened themselves and just would not accept what they saw before their very eyes.

Atheists are said to deny the existence of God because they escape moral accountability. By that, I mean GOD's moral accountability. Atheists are very happy to make up their own morals, but these morals don't always agree and when they conflict it's a matter of "each to their own". So one person might be happy to steal from their employer if they believe they deserved a bonus but didn't get it, so can just help themselves anyway (aka stealing), and another person might be happy to tell little white lies to save face but just not tell the "big lies", whatever that means! With God it is clear cut; you don't steal and you don't lie. If you do either of these then you have broken His law and deserve punishment for being a liar and a thief.

If an atheist denies God's existence then they don't believe they come under His law. However, if you deny the law of our land exists, then you are still culpable if you break it. Denial doesn't make it go away, but it does make the atheist believe they are somehow entitled to choose their own morals and change them however they see fit. Maybe even changing them from one set of circumstances to another.

Evolution helps atheists justify to themselves that they must be right and this self-deception is more comfortable to live with than the truthful judgement of a Holy God.

Of course, there are no examples of anyone coming to Christ with the notion that Genesis is merely figurative. That is a modern absurdity; the Jews all knew that Genesis was written as literal history.

Absolutely!

It really seems hypocritical for christians to try and cherry pick whatever suits them from the bible and throw the rest out.

I couldn't agree more. If it were in my power I'd make you Minister of Faith and you watch you break the power of religion in this country once and for all. I'd guess about 99% of all religion would go because those that believe in a literal bible are just a handful - relatively speaking.

I know some of those christians on here. Some are really nice people, but obviously they are wrong to pick and choose. That's the same as making up their own bible.

Now onto the anti-atheist bit.

Slightly more religious people are in prison than atheists. So that blows your contention that we are less moral out of the water.

And remember your argument above where you point out that religious people make up their own rules. So hardly any are following the bible anyway so won't have better morals.

How many real followers of the true religion do you claim exist? 100? 1,000, a million? The million might be plausible if world wide, but not in the UK.

How can so few people be right?

if you deny the law of our land exists, then you are still culpable if you break it. Denial doesn't make it go away

True, but the law of the land is backed up by the police and courts.

Iif someone put posters up in the street saying "You are now under the authority of the pumpkin people and must BY LAW wear a pink bobbly hat" then I wouldn't worry too much about the consequences of going bare headed.

It's not anti-atheist as in anti-atheists per-se, don't forget, I was an atheist once upon a time. But of course God opposes the doctrine of atheism, which is different.

Also, please look careful at what I said: 'By that, I mean GOD's moral accountability. Atheists are very happy to make up their own morals...'

Religious people are sinners just like atheists. Added to that, not all people professing to be religious will actually be saved by Grace, because they are not "trusting In Him".

Perhaps some are just nominally religious like the Pharisaic religious leaders, trying to trust in their own works to save them from God's judgement.

And even those who truly are "trusting in HIM" alone, are not perfect just because they are saved. They won't get away with their mistakes because God says he disciplines those whom He loves, like a faithful parent does. Christian's saved by God's grace will still commit sins before they die of old age, because as the famous Alexander Pope saying goes: "to err is human". The aim is to avoid making mistakes and to seek God's forgiveness when they do, so they can get back in fellowship with God.

I don't know if you're in a relationship currently, but if you are, you will know that awful heaviness when a couple are not in fellowship (thesaurus: togetherness, intimacy, togetherness) with each other through disagreement. Peace is then again restored when both partners have made up completely. David the Psalmist described it as feeling like his bones were broken when He was at odds with God.

You ask How can so few people be right? Last week I showed in the bible where Jesus said His way is narrow and few will choose that path.

True, but the law of the land is backed up by the police and courts. And the law of God is backed up by judgement for Every. Single. Person. It's a hopeful message though, because God provides a payment for the penalty all of your transgressions deserve. Every. Single. Wrong.

When I said "How can so few people be right" I was thinking of the often used argument that Christianity must be true because "How could so many people be wrong".

I'd still like your rough estimate of how many true followers there are in the world. The pope is not one of them and nor are most of the religious people I've encountered on here.

You may have missed what I was getting at about people in prison but the figures show that religion has no effect at all on morals. Remember most of the laws that lead to prison are the same as god's laws. The churches claim they came from god originally.

So maybe it's only you with the one true religion and that's why it doesn't cause a shift in the figures.

Btw was that bit about estrangement for god a hint that you are one of those who believe that's what hell is? Surely you must go with a permanent hell of torture to be consistent.

That was meant to say "estrangement from god".

You must have noticed that many Christians believe the only hell is the sadness you feel at disappointing god. They have thrown out all that embarrassing torture stuff cos it sounds awful at dinner parties

I can't give you what you want because if I had that power then I would also be able to tell you the lottery numbers, or the day you will die. I can't do any of those things and it is unrealistic to expect that of any human! But God alone has this knowledge.

I do believe we will all tremble at the judgement day when our name is called up and our lives examined. When stood before a Holy and Mighty God to be judged, we will all of a sudden feel very unworthy I am sure.

The difference is that those who "believed in Him" shall not perish but have eternal life, and rewards according to works are given to the saved (not saved BECAUSE of their works, to be clear). Perhaps there may be some regret for a life being squandered rather than used to serve God? I can imagine it is like giving to charity. I might give to Children in Need each year but if someone faced me with all the money I have and the lifestyle I enjoy, we all know I could sacrifice more and give more to others than I actually do.

The bible speaks of Hell. Apparently Jesus uses the word "hell" more than anyone else in the bible. Matthew 5 discusses God's judgement in terms of being like a court. He highlights the laws of old (ten commandments etc) and says if you are angry it is as bad as murder, and if you lust after someone you commit adultery in your heart, which is as bad to God as actually doing it. None of us can escape, we're all guilty.

Matthew 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment. It also speaks of the righteous having eternal life. This doesn't mean your own righteousness, it means being clothed in Jesus' righteousness as found in Romans 3:22 "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;" Covered by His Free Gift of forgiveness. Covered in His blood which was shed at the cross to pay our sin penalty, so we don't have to.

The bible is riddles with verses to support this, such as Romans 4:5 "However, to the one who does not work [to save themselves] but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith [belief in Him] is credited as righteousness" and Ephesians 3:12 "In him [Jesus] and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."

Revelations 20:20 speaks of "the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

That means eternally, without end. If you believe "In Him" only, with nothing added, then - and only then - your name is written in the book of life.

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was
thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

Your name MUST be in the book of life, and that comes ONLY by believing the gospel.

The 'Christians' who speak of hell being "away from God" perhaps are thinking of 2 Thessalonians 1:9: “And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power." However, if they try to ignore the many other verses about eternal punishment then they are back to cherry-picking the nice bits - the bits as you rightly said, that doesn't go down well at a dinner party. But then neither does a topic about child abuse but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It is true that you WILL exist forever. But where you will be for eternity, is entirely up to you.

but God doesn't abandon even the most heart-hearted rebel. He keeps nudging, He is the God of second chances

how does this nudging work if you're starving to death or being raped every day? Does he lay off the nudging seeing as you don't have the time for any navel gazing? Could he convert the energy he puts into nudging you into maybe feeding you?

feel very unworthy

unworthy of what?

rewards according to works

what sort of works would they be? I'm hoping you mean being kind and loving and caring for people and so on and not just proselytising? What about the people who have been kind and loving and caring but were not convinced but the evidence for god a over god b. See, to my flawed mind, that seems immoral, to ultimately choose people to reward because of what they think of you, believe what other people think of you rather than just the merits of their goodness alone. That seems vain, conceited and abhorrent.

What you're trying to discuss here is suffering. God giving people second chances is an entirely different topic.
In case you're on a phone app and can't see images, this sums it up:
Don't create the syllogism:

I don't like bad things.
People do bad things,
therefore God doesn't exist.

It doesn't make sense.

However, if they try to ignore the many other verses about eternal punishment then they are back to cherry-picking the nice bits - the bits as you rightly said, that doesn't go down well at a dinner party. But then neither does a topic about child abuse but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Nope, what makes hell abhorrent isn't what makes child abuse abhorrent although it's interesting that you chose such a despicable human act to compare to a place your god created. What makes hell abhorrent is that it's part of the plan of a supposedly just god, whereas child abuse, as awful as it is, is a human act, and as Traci Harris famously pointed out, one that you and I would always stop if we could, yet one that your god doesn't, and just sits and watches and says 'go ahead and rape that 5 year old, I'll punish you later, unless you believe in the gospel.

Unworthy of God, being in his presence.

A man rapes and murders an atheist charity worker. She goes to hell because she wasn't convinced with the claims that Christianity made. He finds god in prison after a life of raping and murdering and goes to heaven. You say that that could happen under god's designed system. I say that is disgusting and I know you would agree. So you agree that there is something horribly wrong with the system you think your god uses. If you don't agree that that is wrong then I don't think we have a common sense of what's right and good and moral.

Why would I feel unworthy of his presence? Didn't he design me? I assume it was him that wanted me in his presence? I didn't chose to be made or exist? Could you imagine standing over your children and wanting them to feel unworthy of your presence?

Funny you should say that, I was rapes as a 5 year old.

But putting that aside, you're expecting God to stop all evil. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever lusted after someone? Have you ever stolen?

Then you're a lying, adulterous, thief.

So I am.

But we're not rapists. However rape isn't the only sin. I suspect you would

God didn't want robots, he could have designed us that way but He didn't want to. He wanted people to have choice. I suspect if you have a partner then you would want him to WANT to be in a relationship with you and live under the same roof, rather than be forced into it against his will.

All sin grieves God, not just rape.

One day God will stop all evil. This earth will be gone, God will make a new heaven and a new earth. One day everyone, including you and I, will be judged for our sins.

The rewards are mentioned for various things but not all; I think if a person is living for God and "laying up treasure in heaven" rather than here in this world where nothing lasts forever and everything perishes in the end, then that's a good place to start.

God will never be made to your specifications or in your image; YOU are made in HIS!

I say that is disgusting and I know you would agree

Actually the bible disagrees with that. If you commit one sin you've committed them all.

It's like a broken cup thrown to the floor. One cup has a large crack and a handle missing, the other is split totally in half. Both are ruined and not suitable for anything other than the bin.

Rape is a sin. Lying is a sin. Adultery is a sin. Stealing is a sin. Murder is a sin. Blasphemy is a sin. Rebelling against God is a sin. There you go, you're committed at least 5 out of 7.

Giving aid to charity was something that Jimmy Savile did a lot of. That didn't qualify him for heaven any more than it would a non-believing atheist. Remember it is by Grace through FAITH alone. Not by works.

I assume that God will make sure they are good in heaven though by taking away their free will.

Everyone in heaven will have to be good otherwise heaven would be just as bad as here.

No, we are a new creation, eternally sealed by the Holy Spirit of God.

The angels had a one-time choice whether to follow God or not. We also have a one-time choice whether to "trust in Him".

The bible doesn't suggest we suddenly become imprisoned once we get to heaven, so it is fair to assume we will have free will but we just won't want to sin anymore. It will have changed irrevocably. Those in heaven will be "sealed" in their decision to forsake sin and trust in HIM. We will not even have the choice to sin because there is no sin in heaven (revelations 21:27) rather than because our freedom has gone.

At the same time, having been delivered from sin and evil, and viewing the wonderful glories of heaven, we would not choose sin even if we had the choice offered to us on a plate. EVERYTHING will have changed. Why would we want to trade our place for a place much worse? Such a question makes no sense.

Revelation 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

"Remember it is by Grace through FAITH alone. Not by works." So Jimmy Saville's actions didn't matter- as long as he had faith then he would get a visa to heaven.

Jimmy Savile's actions mattered just as much as anyone else's does.

You seem to be misunderstanding what is meant by 'works' in my comment linked above.

The works I discussed were in relation to working for your own salvation. No one is able to do that, you can't, I can't, and Jimmy Savile most certainly couldn't even if he tried.

we would not choose sin even if we had the choice offered to us on a plate
Yes because you can rely on 100% of people making a sensible choice 100% of the time. That would only work if we ceased to be who we are and if we are not who we are then it's not really us going to heaven.

Those in heaven will be "sealed" in their decision to forsake sin and trust in HIM Well that explains it. A fancy way of saying they can't choose.

Remember that everyone sins. That it is in our nature. If that were not the case then some people would be perfect and not need to be saved at all.