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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Hakluyt's Voyages.......

570 replies

Hakluyt · 23/10/2014 18:10

........just in case anyone fancies continuing them.

We were, I think, discussing the issue around dating dinosaur bones........among other things.

OP posts:
PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 22:12

Could say the same to you Errol Wink

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 22:22

they have a choice to turn to Him or away from Him. Whatever their past, whatever the prevailing religion around them.

So it's an amazing coincidence that must children of Muslims become Muslim and not Christian? You're really going with that?

PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 22:27

Didn't you come from a Christian background and leave it?

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 22:29

you don't want to address that then? I thought not.

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 22:36

You're claiming that everyone gets an equal chance and is born with the knowledge of god. Yet mostly the children of Muslims become Muslim. If you are right then Muslims should produce the same number of Christian children as Christian parents do.

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 22:37

Oh and they should have done so before any missionaries told them god existed.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/10/2014 22:39

And Buddists tend to beget (godless) Buddhists ...

PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 22:41

You can't prove the missionary didn't rock up because God saw one of them had begun to seek Him, even if it was to say "someone's out there, whoever you are please show yourself to me". Or maybe even just sigh a sigh of knowing there is more than they have out to them, because not only does the bible say He knows our thoughts before they are a word on our tongue, but God knows the meaning of our every groan. Even without words.

PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 22:42

You're both forgetting that everyone in the beginning all believe in God. But then some turned away.

Adam and Eve weren't Buddhists.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/10/2014 22:44

You're both forgetting that everyone in the beginning all believe in God.

I don't think there's any evidence to support that assertion (and no, what it says in the bible is not evidence, just the assertion of one religious book)

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 22:53

PickledInAJar , then the reason most Muslim children reject Christianity and become Muslim is what?

You must believe that the children of Christians are better somehow.

PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 23:10

Actually one of the reasons a lot of Christians won't baptise their children is that they owe it as a choice to make as an adult. While children can have some understanding, it's more likely that they don't fully decide until adulthood.

Isn't that your personal experience?

PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 23:10

View it not owe it

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 23:18

I'll answer your question about my experience when you have explained how come most children of Muslims become Muslim and not Christian (and vice versa)

Either they don't have the same choice or they do have the same choice, but they start out different.

Is that it? that they 'start out different'

ErrolTheDragon · 27/10/2014 23:24

I'm not sure about 'a lot' - adult baptism isn't the norm in UK denominations, (though I always did think it made more sense; my family weren't baptists). The largest denominations in the UK not only baptise infants but also make children communicants - RC extremely young, CofE often early teenage.

JassyRadlett · 27/10/2014 23:54

A lot to get through here and I have both work and sleep to prioritise so you'll forgive me if I'll get to it in manageable chunks (also easier for people to read on a screen).

Can you give an example of a country that you speak of?

You may wish to start with Argentina, where religion, politics and the state are fundamentally entwined, as they are in a number of South and Central American countries. You could also look to Central and Eastern Europe where faith plays a much stronger role in national life than in the UK or the USA.

I'm interested if you can name any that aren’t atheists?

Do CofE clergy with a doctorate in theology count as non-atheists? There has been a lot written on the subject by extremely eminent clergy of various denominations - for nearly two millennia now. They've come up with quite good explanations of how those contradictions came to be and how it influenced their interpretation of the texts, but they didn't deny that the contradictions (some petty, some not).

In terms of internal consistency - I think there's a massive problem with talking about 'the bible' as if it's one immutable text, given that even among different Christian faiths, different versions (not translations - actual included text are used). We're raised to believe there are 66 books in the canonical bible. Which is fine unless you are Catholic, or Orthodox. Then you have to be sure the compilers got hold of the right manuscript, because different manuscripts of the same book differ.

Then when you're reading Genesis you have to decide what the writer was trying to convey with two different versions of the creation story. I know there are literalist explanations of this - but they are no more compelling arguments than the historical explanations of why in the very beginning of the bible there are two different ways of describing the creation. And you go on from there, having to backform explanations that satisfy you on how a literal reading of the bible can possibly be accurate.

JassyRadlett · 27/10/2014 23:55

Quick clarification - the clergy with doctorate in theology, and other clergy, are the folks I know. There is also an awful lot published on the subject by people of faith.

JassyRadlett · 28/10/2014 00:00

CofE seems to be moving to earlier communicants too - full confirmation in early teens but first communion earlier. But I'm not sure Pickled considers the CofE real Christians?

You can't prove the missionary didn't rock up because God saw one of them had begun to seek Him, even if it was to say "someone's out there, whoever you are please show yourself to me". Or maybe even just sigh a sigh of knowing there is more than they have out to them, because not only does the bible say He knows our thoughts before they are a word on our tongue, but God knows the meaning of our every groan. Even without words.

I also can't prove that the missionary didn't rock up because a Hindu or animist god didn't want to test the faith of their people, and their people failed the test and will suffer for eternity.

However it is proof to people's desire to believe in deities to explain things they cannot otherwise explain that in the country of my grandfather and mother's upbringing, there is a relatively remote tribe who are still convinced that the Duke of Edinburgh is a god, based on exactly the desire you have explicated in the above statement.

Maybe they're right, and we've been misjudging the guy all this time.

JassyRadlett · 28/10/2014 00:00

Typo - because a Hindu or animist god wanted to test the faith of their people.

VelvetGreen · 28/10/2014 01:22

I take it you refer to your cut and paste article from the talkorigins website?

I linked to an article (this one), and then referred to it in a subsequent post when you ignored it. But yes, i didn't include the bit where the Institute of Creation Research said:

At least one theory of cosmology has been proposed which would compensate for this large amount of heat and possibly even result in net volumetric cooling in places. Such theories seem to ultimately to depend upon supernatural intervention at the time of Creation, Fall, and the Flood.

So you don't actually have any answer for this other than god sorted it.

Physicists are stirred by claims that the sun may change what?s unchangeable?the rate of radioactive decay

I already explained why it is not relevant to dating. Your extrapolation does not work because:

  1. none of the isotopes affected are used for dating
  2. there is proof that other isotopes do not fluctuate
  3. the fluctuations detected are based on a small number of observations that are a long way from having a verifiable explanation

One of the scientists actually working on this said The fluctuations we're seeing are fractions of a percent and are not likely to radically alter any major anthropological findings source here.

headinhands · 28/10/2014 08:49

You can't prove the missionary didn't rock up because God saw one of them had begun to seek Him,

There's something very ugly about a god who will pull strings to advertise his brand of religion but won't pull strings to stop a child being raped or starving to death.

PickledInAJar · 28/10/2014 08:50

BackOnlyBriefly: Either they don't have the same choice or they do have the same choice, but they start out different

We all start out different. Even in this country. That is across the board, from socio-economic, to cultural and religious backgrounds. That’s the same as children from abroad too.

ErrolTheDragon: though I always did think it made more sense
Well your thoughts were more biblically aligned that you perhaps realised, and in this point we both agree. I also agree with you that RC and C/E churches practise baptisms outside of the age of personal choice. They don’t use full submersion either, which doesn’t follow the biblical example either. I would think these two particular denominations largely follow old customs rather than the bible itself, although I don’t doubt there could be some genuine bible-believers who also attend. Some just not all. The rest of them are attending just to get into a decent school! Just kidding.

JassyRadlett: you may wish to start with Argentina, where religion, politics and the state are fundamentally entwined

Argentinians follow the catholic religion is that right? I am sure if you looked behind the closed doors you would see that it’s very much possibly for people to attend church because its the done thing rather than because they truly believe the bible. Just the same as in our own country here.

Argentinian Church attendance is 24%

there has been a lot written on the subject by extremely eminent clergy of various denominations - for nearly two millennia now
Why don’t you name one and we can talk about it, examining it further, otherwise you’re asking me to talk blindly about something I haven’t read. Anyone can train as a priest without actually believing the bible. A study showed that 89% of Episcopalian priests said, “NO” when asked “Is Jesus the son of God?” and 89% of Episcopalian priests said, “NO” when asked “is the bible the inspired word of God?”

Priests don’t believe their own religion

two different versions of the creation story is a terrible lie. What you’re reading is two accounts, one in chronological order, the other as a summary.

It’s no different to saying “I brushed my teeth then got dressed and ate breakfast. I then drove the car to work and witnessed an accident on the way. I was late to work because I waited with the cyclist until the ambulance arrived but my boss was still upset that I was late for my meeting”.

And then later at the pub telling a friend “I was late for my work meeting because I stopped to help a cyclist involved in a road accident that I witnessed on my way to work this morning”

there is a relatively remote tribe who are still convinced that the Duke of Edinburgh is a god, based on exactly the desire you have explicated in the above statement.
Whilst I find Prince Philip absolutely hilarious, common sense tells you he is no God! You can be sure that if they had opened themselves to God He would have revealed Himself to them. In fact we know missionaries have been there to point people to God, so they’ve had a fair chance! Missionaries in Tanna

VelvetGreen: I already explained why it is not relevant to dating.
And I already explained that you’re getting obsessed with one tiny point I made, that if you put together the potential for an open system rather than a closed system, with all the other assumptions made, you’d get a much younger earth.

headinhands · 28/10/2014 09:03

common sense tells you he is no god

Oh please do expand on that Pickled.

JassyRadlett · 28/10/2014 09:07

Argentinians follow the catholic religion is that right? I am sure if you looked behind the closed doors you would see that it’s very much possibly for people to attend church because its the done thing rather than because they truly believe the bible. Just the same as in our own country here.

You're shifting your argument. You posited that the reason we don't see more dissenting science from a creationist perspective is because scientists are afraid of speaking out. I asked why, were that the case, did we not see more dissenting science from more religious societies - where it is 'the done thing' in your words - and in particular where religion plays a much larger role in the state and the judiciary.

PickledInAJar · 28/10/2014 09:09

Laughing at headinhands Grin he is really funny though, isn't he? I've seen a great photo of the Queen giggling like a school girl at his public antics and I can quite see why!