Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Hakluyt's Voyages.......

570 replies

Hakluyt · 23/10/2014 18:10

........just in case anyone fancies continuing them.

We were, I think, discussing the issue around dating dinosaur bones........among other things.

OP posts:
PickledInAJar · 26/10/2014 15:23

Well first of all the bible isn't packed full of contradictions, that is a misconception usually spread by people who haven't actually picked the book up and looked for themselves. Of course when I say 'look' I mean read in context and with good understanding of the translation and meaning. It sometimes takes study.

Most people pass on ideas they've heard of or read on an theism websites instead. Is that where your idea of contradictions comes from?

As for your other point about scientists and other countries that are religious; being religious doesn't mean you necessarily believe in and trust the bible, or study and follow it. Sometimes it means a nominal visit for a wedding or Christmas event and nothing more. I'd say a huge amount of people that tick on a form to say they're religious couldn't tell you much about the bible at all because they don't ever read it. They just don't want to consider themselves atheist or Buddhist or whatever else instead.

You've always had people turn their back on God; history is full of it. In he bible it was false idols or false gospels, today it's usually worship of money or following evilution blindly, that sort of thing.

Society has definitely become more God-less outwardly as well as inwardly. Perhaps there was a time they it was inwardly only and people followed suit just to look the part and fit in, but not really honestly following it.

bigbluestars · 26/10/2014 15:25

"Of course when I say 'look' I mean read in context and with good understanding of the translation and meaning. It sometimes takes study.
"

How arrogant.

PickledInAJar · 26/10/2014 15:25

I think Buddhism was around before Darwin?

They didn't believe in a creator God either.

Like I said, it's really not new.

PickledInAJar · 26/10/2014 15:27

I can imagine you'd dislike that bigbluestar - remind me, you say you're a practicing witch is that right? They tend to have such reactions to the idea of looking at, much less studying, the bible.

bigbluestars · 26/10/2014 15:28

I have read the bible cover to cover. I have a copy in my home.

What basis do you have for your assumptions?

PickledInAJar · 26/10/2014 15:29

People taking it horribly out of context and trying to get away with twisting the meaning without actually measuring it up or studying the original words, etc.

bigbluestars · 26/10/2014 15:34

pickled- you see I just don't get that. If the bible is truly god's word then surely it should be accessible to all.

Spread the word and all that. Not some convuluted and at times frankly bizarre text .

God isn't terribly media savvy. Maybe he should have given that some consideration.

BackOnlyBriefly · 26/10/2014 15:40

Of course when I say 'look' I mean read in context and with good understanding of the translation and meaning. It sometimes takes study.

Indeed it does because you have to find ways to make it say what you wanted it to say when you opened it. You have to be prepared to mark the bits you disagree with as metaphor and the bits that support your arguments as the literal word of the creator. And the way you know which bits are the word of god is that those bits agree with what you think is right.

PickledInAJar, you replied to the question *would a non-believer have to then believe in the story in genesis? with "I don’t think they would. They’d follow the notion of aliens first; anything other than God"

But you think they should then believe in the story in genesis?

Do you deny that you think the only alternative to evolution is your god. Not just any god, but your one?

JassyRadlett · 26/10/2014 15:48

I've done an awful lot of reading and studying the bible over the years. Indeed, how arrogant to assume that anyone who doesn't share your views hasn't studied it enough. I know plenty of theologians who will tell you the bible is full of contradictions, and therefore literalism is problematic.

You haven't explained why you think the prevailing cultural view shifted from creationism to evolution. That's an awful lot of people simultaneously 'turning their backs on God' (including a large number who consider themselves Christians).

I'm not talking about tick a box places. Have you not been to countries where religion - indeed, where sects of Christianity - play a central role in most aspects of daily life? There are a lot of them out there, including many European nations. Dismissing them out of hand feels like it may be because it doesn't suit your argument, or because you don't have a pat answer.

JassyRadlett · 26/10/2014 16:12

Which people, Pickled? Do you include all Christians who don't agree with your interpretation?

BigDorrit · 26/10/2014 16:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hakluyt · 26/10/2014 16:30

"People taking it horribly out of context and trying to get away with twisting the meaning without actually measuring it up or studying the original words, etc."

How many languages do you read, pickled?

OP posts:
BigDorrit · 26/10/2014 16:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VelvetGreen · 26/10/2014 21:54

Pickled.

  1. There is zero evidence for any variation in the rate of decay of any of the isotopes used for radiometric dating. You have not provided any evidence to suggest that there is - i provided a whole list to back up my claim.
  1. There is some suggestion that there may be some small fluctuations of some other isotopes. If these are eventually proven then science will accommodate this new information. They still would not prove a young earth.
  1. If point 2 proves to be correct (and it is a long, long way from being so), it still does not mean that radiometric dates are wrong (see point 1).

I linked to a piece of research that proves there is no variation in seven different isotopes. The best you can offer is that there is a small chance that there may be a tiny variation an a few isotopes entirely irrelevant to radiometric dating.

Re missed points, i'm not going to repeat my previous post but for example did you read the article explaining why, if things transpired the way you are suggesting, that 6000 years ago the earth would be molten and we would be burnt to a crisp? What do you propose has happened to all the heat generated by volcanoes, molten rock, asteroid impacts? What has happened to the heat (and radioactivity) generated by radioactive decay if you condense all of the radioactivity lost on earth into 6000 years, not to mention the fact that at the time of creation it would be even worse as all the short-lived isotopes would have been active too? Even creationists don't seem to be sure. The article finishes with a quote from the Institute for Creation Research:

"One major obstacle to accelerated decay is an explanation for the disposal of the great quantities of heat which would be generated by radioactive decay over short periods of time. For example, if most of the radioactive decay implied by fission tracks or quantities of daughter products occurred over the year of the Flood, the amount of heat generated would have been excessive, given present conditions."

I think excessive may be something of an understatement, but at least they acknowledge the (great big glaring) flaw in the argument.

headinhands · 27/10/2014 14:11

horribly out of context

Funny how the nice bits mean exactly what they say while the horrible bits need to be pushed through the Apologetatron Machine.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/10/2014 14:25

Most people pass on ideas they've heard of or read on an theism websites instead. Is that where your idea of contradictions comes from?

of course creationists don't get any of their ideas from creationist websites...

I started noticing contradictions when I was a child, long before there were any websites to consult. Of course I couldn't apply any of the sophistry of bible literalists to my observations, but not being raised as a literalist the contradictions didn't worry too much! Grin

headinhands · 27/10/2014 14:33

It wasn't until my deconversion was well underway that I did much googling, and yes I've learnt some really interesting things via skeptic sites, especially listening to the Atheist Experience shows. I'm not sure how learning things is ever a bad thing? It's like saying 'yeah, well you only know that because someone taught you' as if that negates what they were taught??

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 14:34

I'd love to see a debate between the various types of Christian. We're got enough flavours on MN to make it interesting.

Over the years I've been here each side has produced arguments for their position being the obviously correct one.

As I've mentioned recently I've been told on MN that talking about creationism is just something Atheists do to make Christians look stupid and then you have Creationists who seem to believe that denying creationism is an atheist conspiracy.

Also it would be nice to put to rest the claim that "a billion christians can't be wrong". Wrong about what? That's up to a billion different religions depending where you draw the lines.

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 14:41

ErrolTheDragon, they throw that accusation at me too. I was a kid too when I started picking it apart. Back then colour TV was an exciting new development and the internet was science fiction.

I just had a bible and some highlighters to mark the interesting bits.

headinhands · 27/10/2014 15:07

Put it another way, you only know about Jesus because someone told you and I assume that was satisfactory to you?

BigDorrit · 27/10/2014 18:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BackOnlyBriefly · 27/10/2014 19:48

Exactly!

But the Hindus, Muslims etc don't really count though. We send missionaries to them because we know they are only heathens out of ignorance. Once we've explained that to them and given them a free bible and a shoebox, god will show them the light. They'd be be Christians already if they'd grown up in a decent Christian family in a Christian country.

You won't hear that from the middle-of-the-road Christians around here because they know how awful that sounds. It gets sugar-coated, with some saying that god knows who's been naughty and who's been nice. That religions are just like desktop or browser themes. You can worship god in many ways and it doesn't matter that as long as you have faith.

But I'm sure that most know deep down that only Christians go to heaven.

And the Jehovah's Witnesses are probably laughing because they know deep down that there's only room for 144,000 and that won't include any Catholics or Protestants.

PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 21:46

JassyRadlett Sun 26-Oct-14 15:13:26
The Bible itself is packed with contradictions - Christianity itself is compromise.?

What examples can you give to support this opinion?

If the reason scientists are scared to speak out is because it goes against the prevailing theory base, why don't we see more young earth science being peer reviewed and coming out of other countries with a greater religious monoculture

Can you give an example of a country that you speak of?

bigbluestars Sun 26-Oct-14 15:34:10
pickled- you see I just don't get that. If the bible is truly god's word then surely it should be accessible to all.

It is; very much so. However, so as not to fall into the pit of misinterpretations, you need to make sure you’re understanding the words used. Because it’s translated we need to uncover the original words and meanings. ?It’s very easy to do with a good word reference concordance and expository dictionary.

BackOnlyBriefly Sun 26-Oct-14 15:40:58
And the way you know which bits are the word of god is that those bits agree with what you think is right.

Not at all, quite the opposite actually. I read, study, understand, and then agree with it because it matches everything else that’s written in the same book. I don’t go in with a belief or a theory and try to twist it to match my thoughts. I’m not an evolutionary scientist, you know! ;)

JassyRadlett Sun 26-Oct-14 15:48:04
how arrogant to assume that anyone who doesn't share your views hasn't studied it enough I think I said people who follow the crowd without really bothering to read the book, or people who deliberately twist the words of the book; nothing to do with everyone agreeing with me!

I know plenty of theologians who will tell you the bible is full of contradictions, and therefore literalism is problematic.
I'm interested if you can name any that aren’t atheists? Literalism is only problematic if it is taken out of context or twisted deliberately. Some of the bible is based on personal conscience, like whether to drink alcohol, but some of it is an absolute, like never to get drunk. The bible is clear when someone is a command or a choice.

You haven't explained why you think the prevailing cultural view shifted from creationism to evolution. That's an awful lot of people simultaneously 'turning their backs on God' (including a large number who consider themselves Christians)

Yes and that’s actually forecast in the bible too, so if you have read it as thoroughly as you say, you might recall reading that part.

VelvetGreen Sun 26-Oct-14 21:54:58
1. There is zero evidence for any variation in the rate of decay of any of the isotopes used for radiometric dating

Physicists are stirred by claims that the sun may change what’s unchangeable—the rate of radioactive decay

2. There is some suggestion that there may be some small fluctuations of some other isotopes. If these are eventually proven then science will accommodate this new information. They still would not prove a young earth.

You’re actually missing my point. I said that there are many assumptions, constant radioactive decay is just one of them. But put them all together and the tower starts to wobble.

i'm not going to repeat my previous post but for example did you read the article explaining why, if things transpired the way you are suggesting, that 6000 years ago the earth would be molten and we would be burnt to a crisp?

I take it you refer to your cut and paste article from the talkorigins website??Yes I read it but was a little concerned to see you have only written half the story on the irc website. You cut and paste the past where they pose a question but left out the part where they follow immediately by posing an answer. I followed your example and cut and paste it below:

The rest of the VelvetGreen cut and paste that had a missing –chunk-- link!

The group decided that the principal tentative approach to this research effort will be to explore accelerated rates of decay of radioisotopes during one or more of the Creation, Fall, and Flood events. Several sources of data suggest that significant quantities of radioactive decay have occurred in the history of the earth and cosmos. The conventional model assumes that this decay has occurred slowly over billions of years rather than in concentrated episodes over short periods of time. Research may be able to distinguish between these models.
Whether accelerated decay is the only and/or final approach followed or not, the geochemical/geophysical evidence in the rocks must be consistent with whatever theory is proposed. In other words, the distribution of parent and daughter elements in the stratigraphic record must occur in a manner which would validate the theory, and any deviations able to be explained by geological/geochemical processes. For example, if accelerated decay occurred only during the Flood, then strata which were laid down before the Flood should show different ratios of radioisotopes and daughter products than strata laid down during or following the Flood. Because there are still differences of opinion about the location of Flood boundaries, this may be difficult. In fact, a study of the distribution of parent and daughter elements relative to the Flood may go a long way toward helping define the boundaries of Flood strata. Radioisotope data from the Moon or Mars may add additional insights.
One major obstacle to accelerated decay is an explanation for the disposal of the great quantities of heat which would be generated by radioactive decay over short periods of time. For example, if most of the radioactive decay implied by fission tracks or quantities of daughter products occurred over the year of the Flood, the amount of heat generated would have been excessive, given present conditions.
At least one theory of cosmology has been proposed which would compensate for this large amount of heat and possibly even result in net volumetric cooling in places. Such theories seem to ultimately to depend upon supernatural intervention at the time of Creation, Fall, and the Flood. God's intervention is explicitly stated in Scripture (II Peter 3:5,6 and implied elsewhere). Although these theories have not been adequately explored at this time, they could well result in an alternative explanation to many processes in the earth and cosmos. The group is strongly committed to exploring various ways in which data for large quantities of radioactive decay can be explained within a young-earth time frame. In this effort, the group is committed to a literal interpretation of the Bible which honors God as Creator and Sustainer of this world.

PickledInAJar · 27/10/2014 21:55

But the Hindus, Muslims etc don't really count though.

Everyone is equal to God. And in equal need of Him. Whether in a country with easy access to the bible, or a country without easy access to the bible. The recent case of a woman converting from Islam to Christianity and under the threat of the death penalty for it is a good point at hand.

We send missionaries to them because we know they are only heathens out of ignorance Not ignorance, the bible says everyone is born with the knowledge of God and they have a choice to turn to Him or away from Him. Whatever their past, whatever the prevailing religion around them.

"those who seek me shall find me" is a promise that often starts with an openness as someone watches the clouds roll by, and knows with a sinking feeling that what's on the plate before them (cultural religion) is just not right. So they begin to seek in their own small steps. And God, being the God of huge mercy, responds to that. Wherever they are.

But I'm sure that most know deep down that only Christians go to heaven. It's not about titles, it's about trusting in God, that He is who He says He is, and that He did what He said He did. "Whosoever BELIEVES in HIM", not whosoever joins the local choir.

ErrolTheDragon · 27/10/2014 22:10

Oh pickled.... just try to read your posts from someone else's POV.