We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

Can you explain how energy is nothing :)

'What produced the energy before inflation? This is perhaps the ultimate question. As crazy as it might seem, the energy may have come out of nothing!'

Guess who I'm quoting.

Quantum fluctuations allowing the creation of pairs of virtual particles are changes in the amount in energy in a space. True, I'm not a quantum physicist. But I know that energy is not nothing.

Saying that something came out of nothing is the same as saying that nothing, plus nothing, plus an infinite amount of nothing, equals something.

What is done, to 'manage' this mathematical impossibility, is the creation of various theories, or if you like, belief systems about what might have given rise to it.

"I think the atheist version is 'there are things we don't yet know about the universe. We are happy with gaps but occasionally fill them with logically impossible theories'."

Eh? No. There were things we don't yet know about the universe. We are happy with the gaps. And we are happy to leave them as gaps until scientific research and knowledge fills them.

And there's your faith, Hakluyt - that the gaps - the mathematical impossibilities even - will somehow be resolved. It's a faith.

Seriously, BigDorrit, your tone is very nettled. Are you aware of that?

Oooh! handbags at dawn :)

By the way, if you have 'experience' of mathematical impossibilities being resolved by empirical fact, do share.

"Can you explain how energy is nothing"

That is not what I have said. At all.

If you intend to quiz people about the nature of matter and energy, you really need to understand this stuff better.

I would recommend this book: Quantum Theory Cannot Hurt You

"Saying that something came out of nothing is the same as saying that nothing, plus nothing, plus an infinite amount of nothing, equals something."

No, it is not.

It could mean a variety of things, including "Once there was nothing, then God made something out of nothing."

Cotedazur, I don't know if you are posting links to avoid basic facts, but really, you have to address them in the end.

Either something came out of nothing, or something always existed.

There is no third alternative.

Something coming out of nothing is a mathematical impossibility. If you want to believe that, fine, it's the same as belief in a logically impossible God.

If mass came out of an expansion, implosion, explosion, or inflation of energy ( :) ) it may have come from ''no mass' but 'no mass' does not mean nothing at all. Perhaps one could believe then in the eternality of energy.

So you believe in one or the other, eternality or a mathematical impossibility. Or you say, I don't know but I think we'll find out one day. So that's a choice between two belief systems or a faith that one day all will be revealed.

In response to your last post - yes, it is.

The statement 'once there was nothing, then God made something out of nothing' is premised on the assumption that something already exists - God.

"And there's your faith, Hakluyt - that the gaps - the mathematical impossibilities even - will somehow be resolved. It's a faith."

No it's not. It's a hope. Very different. The gaps may well never be filled. And they won't be until/unless science finds an answer. I am happy to live with the gaps.

Well Hakluyt at least you can stop claiming that atheism is based on fact, and reason, when it's actually a bundle of theories, and belief, and hope, and doubt, and impossibilities, and gaps, and mysteries. Does that remind you of anything?

How do you know there is no God? Knowledge is a true belief. You don't know if your belief is true - you believe it to be true, but you don't know it.

The difference is that if I have no evidence for something I put it in the "hypothesis" file until I have some evidence. I don't make something up and use it as some sort of spiritual polyfilla...........

"Either something came out of nothing, or something always existed. There is no third alternative. "

There is, actually. "Something" may have come out of "another thing".

It's like you are asking human beings must have either come out of nothing in an instant or they must have always existed. Neither are true. We have evolved from other species.

"So you believe in one or the other, eternality or a mathematical impossibility."

I actually have no idea what you are trying to say, because you are wrong on both counts.

(1) Something has come out of nothing (during Big Bang)
and
(2) And in the universe that has come into being, there is something called the Principle of Conservation of Energy (your "eternality")

Evidence for what? That something came out of nothing? What is this evidence? You could say you have evidence for the eternality of energy - of the circumstantial nature that the alternatives are impossible.

Cote what did the 'other thing' come out of? I'm not talking about humans or even life, or even matter. I'm talking about the first speck of mass, the first flicker of energy, in this universe or dimension, or any other. Ultimately it must have come from nothing - or be eternal.

I'm surprised at you not understanding.

Big Bang did not come out of nothing.

Before energy there was - what? More energy? Do you believe in the eternality of energy, rather than something coming from nothing?

"How do you know there is no God?"

I don't. It is quite possible that Big Bang is how an all-powerful deity created our universe. It is just as possible that an advanced race of extraterrestrials created our universe as an experiment.

Your confusion (and aggression?) stems from your misunderstanding of the word "atheist" as "someone who believes that the universe can't have been purposefully created".

I am someone who has listened to the whole Abrahamic God hypothesis and replied "Nah, that sounds made up". There is no proof for the silly story, so I'm not buying it. That's it.

"Knowledge is a true belief. You don't know if your belief is true - you believe it to be true, but you don't know it."

Sorry but you really aren't making much sense.

Well I think it's been covered pretty well, but I don't know how the universe started. The difference between me and a religious person is that they would make something up and then 'believe' in it.

If someone said they believed that the universe was created by a large pink balloon in what way is that less valid than 'it was created by a god that no one has seen and for which there is no evidence other than wishful thinking'

My aggression? You must be joking. Direct your comment at BigDorrit - and yourself, for the first passive aggressive smiley face.

I know Richard Dawkins has also dallied with the Little Green Men theory, but where did the little green men come from? Nothing?

I don't mind if you don't believe in God, and I'm sure you don't mind if I don't believe in your little green men. I do mind when someone compares religion to fantasy and atheism to reality, and then talks about little green men without explaining where the little green men came from.

If you don't understand that knowledge is true belief then I'm a bit meh about our conversation. That's a pretty ordinary thing to need to understand if you are going to start critiquing belief systems.

Making something up is pretty much what Cote suggests with the little green men theory. If you don't have little green men, you have to explain how something came from nothing, or you have to believe that something is eternal. Nobody knows, and that's why it's all belief, faith and hope.

"Cote what did the 'other thing' come out of?"

I don't know. What do you think it came out of?

In the case of human beings, out of another humanoid race.

"I'm talking about the first speck of mass, the first flicker of energy"

It is called the Singularity. There were no discernible particles, not even any recognisable rules of physics until some time after the Big Bang. Those particles and rules came out of nothing.

"Ultimately it must have come from nothing - or be eternal."

I'm really sorry that you seem stuck on that sentence

As I said before, if you are interested in this subject, do read the book Quantum Theory Cannot Hurt You.

If you intend to continue harassing people on the subject of energy, matter, particle, the universe, Big Bang etc, you really could use some knowledge. Not half-baked oh-I'm-so-smart-and-nobody-else-knows-anything BS but an understanding of our best scientists' understanding of the universe we live in.