We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

What "little green men", Frustrated?

I haven't said any such thing. Do you think I did?

"You could say you have evidence for the eternality of energy"

Last time I'm asking this: Do you mean Conservation of Energy? If so, there is indeed ample evidence for this principle.

If you don't understand that knowledge is true belief

Would you like to have another stab at that sentence? Perhaps it was a typo?

"From goo to you" is a blind belief because no one can observe or test it scientifically.

Gosh I do apologise. For little green men insert 'advanced race of humanoid extra-terrestrials'

I'm stuck on that sentence, Cote, because it is an absolute truth, one that atheists have so much difficulty with that they have to invent theories about advanced races of humanoid extraterrestrials.

In what way am I harassing people? I think I've been awfully harassed by BigDorrit's posts, for example, but am simply responding to all of your questions with equanimity. Obviously the correct response according to you is to cave and cower instead, and it's aggressive to dare to actually post some cogent argument.

And I do rather think your posts have tried the I'm-so-smart-and-nobody knows-anything-BS yourself and come such a cropper that you had to post links and insults instead of arguments.

Cote, I'm sure you understand that conservation of energy theory obtains in a closed system under the 'current' laws of physics, i.e. after the big bang. So you can theorise about what came before that, but one needs to be clear that that is what one is doing.

It is possible that when we finally find out "how it all started" it will turn out to be the Christian God. Fine. Give me the evidence and we'll go from there.

"I'm stuck on that sentence, Cote, because it is an absolute truth, one that atheists have so much difficulty with that they have to invent theories about advanced races of humanoid extraterrestrials."

Eh?

"atheists have so much difficulty with that they have to invent theories about advanced races of humanoid extraterrestrials"

Do you ascribe these theories to all atheists, in the arrogant way that you wrongly think you know what all atheists think?

Or just the few thousand that you have personally asked?

BackonlyBriefly: it's a commonly understood philosophical principle. Google it.

Hakluyt. That makes you an agnostic, not an atheist, I guess? The Christian God is a logical impossibility. There's empirical evidence for stories in the bible, but to have Christian faith you really need to accept the duality that an all Good God, who knows about all the evil in the world, and is powerful enough to stop it, chooses not to. It doesn't make any sense, so then Christians (we Christians) pull the trump card out that we have faith that one day all will be revealed. We can know that it doesn't make sense, and at the same time have faith that one day it will all make sense. So - far from evidence - you actually have lots of different ways of proving that God CANNOT exist.

Actually that's just Cote and Richard Dawkins, so far as I know. Other people say they don't know. Other people point vaguely to the possibility of energy being eternal, but not many seem to understand that something cannot come out of nothing. As you say - many different belief subsets within the overarching atheist belief system.

Some people would rather believe in the possibility of little green men or an unseen and illogical bang out of nowhere, anything other than God.

For those who demand proof, you've repeatedly refused to accept proof shown to you on both this, and previous forums, and it is exactly the same as those who actually stood with Jesus and watched his miracles but said they must be the work of the devil. Anything except for God.

See the similarities? The heart of man has not changed over time, only the beliefs change. Many years ago it was a belief that you can make your own god to replace God, or perhaps a belief that Jesus was of the devil, but nowadays it's that the world created itself from nothing.

"For little green men insert 'advanced race of humanoid extra-terrestrials'...I'm sure you don't mind if I don't believe in your little green men. I do mind when someone compares religion to fantasy and atheism to reality, and then talks about little green men without explaining where the little green men came from."

I didn't say I believe in some advanced race of extraterrestrials. I said "God created our universe" is a possibility, just like "an extraterrestrial race created our universe" is another possibility. There are myriad other possibilities. One of them is "It just happened on its own, by chance".

"I'm stuck on that sentence, Cote, because it is an absolute truth"

No it's not.

"In what way am I harassing people?"

Read the thread. Your posts are a series of "You are all idiots because you believe in an impossibility or you are all as deeply religious as the faithful you look down on". All based on some incomprehensible personal "logic" that clearly feels very logical to you.

"Obviously the correct response according to you is to cave and cower instead, and it's aggressive to dare to actually post some cogent argument. "

"Cave and cower"? What?

No, don't cave and cower. Nobody likes to kick a puppy. Do arm yourself with better logic and some knowledge next time you come around, though.

Hakluyt - Christians also have another built in accommodation of the illogicality of our God. According to the Bible, if you have proof, then you don't need faith - and what you need is faith to be a proper Christian. (see Doubting Thomas parable). So not only do we not need evidence, it's actively undesirable.

What exactly are you arguing for (or against), Frustrated?

Technically, nobody can be an atheist- because you can't prove a negative. But you can be as sure and it is possible to be- 99.9 recurring % sure. That is Richard Dawkins' position. But in the same way that I know the sun will rise tomorrow, I know there is no God. There is a theoretical possibility that the sun will not rise tomorrow- but it's not worth thinking about. That goes for God too.

Where did the little green men come from?

"Hakluyt - Christians also have another built in accommodation of the illogicality of our God. "

Good for you.

I am glad I don't have to jump through that particular hoop. It would make feel like a very dishonest thinker.

I have not said idiots. Absolutely not. BigDorrit said idiots a lot! I think you are projecting Cote. Nor do I look down on you - I assumed you would understand to be fair. It is an absolute truth that something came from nothing, or that something is eternal. I am still waiting to hear what the third alternative is (please don't suggest extra-terrestrials without telling me whether they came from nothing or are eternal).

Sometimes I think atheists are so used to shouting 'fantasy' and nonsense' and looking down on other people, that when a decent argument is made that atheism is itself a belief, they have to retreat into insulting and being aggressive. I wouldn't mind an argument against, like if you'd come up with a good reason for believing that principles like energy conservation could also apply before the big bang. But there isn't any of that.

" It is an absolute truth that something came from nothing, or that something is eternal. I am still waiting to hear what the third alternative is "

I have been saying repeatedly that we don't know. Why do you find this so hard to grasp?

Dishonest - and yet, Hakluyt, you know it's impossible for something to come out of nothing, but you still entertain the possibility?

It's a binary possibility. Something started or something has always been. That's it.

Hakluyt, it's from Cote.

'It is just as possible that an advanced race of extraterrestrials created our universe as an experiment.

In the case of human beings, out of another humanoid race. '

I don't know. I have no need of the supernatural because I am not afraid of not knowing. Maybe one day we will know. But at the moment, we don't. I'm cool with that.