We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

I don't believe there is no god, I don't have a reason to believe a god exists, or at least one who is interested in humans.

"It is a belief system really. Atheists believe that something came out of nothing."

I don't "believe" that. I know that we do not yet know how life started. We will presumably at some stage find out. Atheists are not afraid of saying "That is something we do not yet know". We are happy with gaps so don't feel the need to fill them with the supernatural.

You seem nettled BigDorrit, and your points aren't strong. Yes, you believe that something came from nothing, which as it is logically impossible, is on about the same level as faith in a logically impossible God. OR you believe that something is eternal, which is fine too, but also on the same level as faith in an eternal God.

I suppose atheists could believe in the eternality of energy, but as you so ably point out, perhaps not many atheists have given much thought to the origins of the universe.

I don't reject the claims of religion because of what I think about the universe. It's what I see happening on earth.

I don't see how thinking about the origins of the universe are the best way to decide if a particular god exists. Wouldn't it be better to look at the specific claims of that god seeing as you can't go back in time and watch said god make the universe or whatever.

Hakluyt, atheists know that something came from nothing, or that something is eternal. You believe one or the other - whichever, it's a belief system.

If you believe neither, then you are relying on faith that it will all be explained one day, not on reason and fact. Just like religious people.

Your last paragraph sounds like faith to me. Let's swap a few words round.

Christians are not afraid of saying "there are things we don't yet know about God's intentions. We are happy with gaps so don't feel the need to fill them with logically impossibly theories.

Big Dorrit, can you tell me what you believe, if you don't believe that something came from nothing, OR that something is eternal? I'm intrigued.

Ah but I'm suspending making a decision about the origins of the universe until I know more. Isn't that reasonable, to just hold off forming a stronger opinion until I have more information?

Religious faith means that if you believe whatever you want, then there's your faith system. It doesn't blow baker's theory out of the water, it proves it.

I accept we may never know the answer, I just have to live with that.

If it hasn't been explained yet what choice do I have other than saying 'we don't know'.

Not at all headinhands, that's agnosticism.

Pigletjohn, I don't understand you.

Truth is a belief based on fact. If it's not based on fact, then it's a belief. Atheism is a belief system; and in the case of 1 + 1 = 0, a logically impossible belief system, just like many religions.

No need to be rude. I think I'm a lot clearer on this, and have obviously thought a lot more about it. At least I know what I don't know. I don't need to call other people idiots if they have a different belief system. And I can tell the difference between reason, fact and belief.

From what you post, it seems that you most likely believe in the eternality of energy, but as you don't know yourself, then we can't get along much further. At least we have no need to talk about the distinction between religion and atheism as between fantasy and reality. More like fantasy and.. another fantasy?

FrustratedBaker - re "It is a belief system really. Atheists believe that something came out of nothing."

Can you explain what you mean there?

If you are talking about particles appearing "out of nothing" in vacuum, that actually happens. If you are talking about the universe appearing "out of nothing", that is called Big Bang and is indeed how our universe has come to be according to the best of our understanding.

Dang, I wanted to be 666!

The kind of particles that come 'out of nothing' don't actually spring into existence out of nothing.

The Big Bang was an explosion of energy, which is not nothing. You have to believe that the energy was either eternal or came from nothing.

"Christians are not afraid of saying "there are things we don't yet know about God's intentions. We are happy with gaps so don't feel the need to fill them with logically impossibly theories."

They should do one better and say "There are things we don't yet know about the universe. We are happy with gaps so don't feel the need to fill them with logically impossible theories"

(such as God also being a human man and somehow needing this man to be brutally tortured and murdered to forgive humans that He created )

I think the atheist version is 'there are things we don't yet know about the universe. We are happy with gaps but occasionally fill them with logically impossible theories'.

The reference to God's intentions concerns the absolute logical impossibility of an all Good and all powerful god, alongside the existence of evil, which is covered by 'he passeth our understanding' or something like that.

Wow BigDorrit. Chillax.

"The kind of particles that come 'out of nothing' don't actually spring into existence out of nothing."

They do, actually.

If you have an alternate explanation, I'm sure quantum physicists around the world would love to hear it.

"The Big Bang was an explosion of energy, which is not nothing."

I don't think you know this subject very well

It's called Big Bang but it is not an explosion, and we don't know (can't know) whether or not there was any energy before it. All we know is that our entire universe sprang into existence about 13 billion years ago - came out of nothing, in your words.