Do you feel it is important to share your views on faith or atheism?

[gingerdodger]

This is a genuine question, I am not asking to promote a faith vs atheism debate as we have plenty of those.

My question is whether people feel that it is part of their faith to share those beliefs with others? How far do you take this and how do you approach it? Similarly for those who are atheist, do you feel it is important to share your opinions and in what ways do you do this?

I know some faith groups see this as absaloutely fundamental to their faith whilst others are more relaxed. I also see that those who do not believe in God(s) also often wish to share their opinions widely. It interests me to think about what this achieves in terms of sharing opinions, understanding of each other etc.

From my point of view I strive to be open about my faith, I like to listen to other's perspectives as this makes me think (providing they are listening, I tend to bow out when it starts to feel adversarial and not inquisitorial). I don't feel compelled to actively knock on doors (metaphorically or otherwise) to share my faith but rather subscribe to the view that I hope my approach to life and openness about faith allows me to discuss my faith openly and honestly. I do believe actions speak louder than words and the best form of 'preaching' is to live Christian values of love (not saying I am good at this).

"Right. For the millionth time, capsium, how would you practically organise the removal of children whose parents did not want them to take part in Christian worship from that part of assembly in a way which did not make them embarrassingly conspicuous or mean that they missed any other part of the assembly?"

"I note you have rejected my idea of the children whose parents do want them to take part spending the first 5 minutes of lunchtime doing it- even if lunchtime was made 5 minutes longer."

Hak The how depends on the individual school community. The non Christian worshipers could either just be allowed to reflect silently during prayers, if they were happy with that or a group of children could together go somewhere else to hear a moral non religious tale and sing non religious songs together. Numbers would also be a factor which could help the success of this, but if the stigma was eliminated and the process made straightforward, maybe more would feel empowered to opt their children out.

What needs to happen is that individual schools should be prepared to really engage with parents and tailor provision the needs of the actual (not perceived) community.

"or a group of children could together go somewhere else to hear a moral non religious tale and sing non religious songs together"

How do you do this so they aren't made conspicuous or miss important bits of assembly?

What is wrong with my idea of the children who want to worship going somewhere else to do it for 5 minutes at the beginning of lunch?

Hak I did not reject the 5 minutes longer lunchtime out of hand. It just sounded hurried and as if making provision for worship was just something to be ticked off a list. Schools also may not so easily add 5 minutes onto breaks.

Although, in saying this, it possibly could work, if someone was determined to make it work well.

How do you do this so they aren't made conspicuous or miss important bits of assembly?

It would become the norm, especially so if a significant proportion of children did this. The other bits (community information, awards etc) of assembly would occur before or after this.

If you want more inclusion then surely the answer is to provide an assembly that is just that - inclusive. I don't see how having a separate activity for children who want to worship is in any way the same as excluding a child from an activity that nearly everyone else is taking part in. You would have a worship group in the same way you have a swimming club or wildlife group.

Kids who aren't interested in pond dipping are unlikely to be singled out in the same way as the child who does not attend assembly. There is no law saying a school must provide a wildlife/chess/astronomy club, yet they still do.

I suspect there is a fear among the faithful that if people had to actively opt in to worship in schools then the true level of apathy towards faith in this country would become all too apparent.

Right. So you have no idea how you would do it tomorrow.

It really doesn't sound as if you care. My children would have be made miserable by being taken out of assembly in front of everyone. But so long as you get your precious 5 minutes of prayer who cares?

I just don't understand. I just don't understand why you can't see how unfair you are being insisting on something that could upset other people. When you have 18 hours outside school to pray continuously if you want to.

"I suspect there is a fear among the faithful that if people had to actively opt in to worship in schools then the true level of apathy towards faith in this country would become all too apparent"

Apathy and actual active non faith choices. Yes. This.

"I suspect there is a fear among the faithful that if people had to actively opt in to worship in schools then the true level of apathy towards faith in this country would become all too apparent."

And this is the truth of the matter.

Sorry hak- X posted- onegg made such an importat point though- worth repeating.

Hang on everyone! I've solved the problem!

Capsium said "The non Christian worshipers could either just be allowed to reflect silently during prayers"

So how about this. Assembly. Some sort of non religious inspirational story. Then Head says "We are going to take a few moments to think about the story we've just heard. If you would like to say a silent prayer then please use this time to do so."

Sorted. Capsium, you should be fine with that. Unless you think God can't hear silent prayers- in which case you have bigger problems that collective worship in school.
[proud problem solving emoticon]

Interesting to note too that our primary school does have a bible study class for those wishing to participate.

There are usually 3 or 4 children attend out of a school of 100 pupils.
The soccer club and basketball club each have around 40 members, although also held at lunchtime ( different days to bible study club).

My kids are at secondary school now, and there are a great number of clubs, including scripture Union- which again can count the number of attendees in the low teens ( out of a school role of 1300).

Again many other clubs, debating society, history club, athletics, hockey, maths study club have hundreds of pupils attending.

I don't know where this big majority that capsium talks of who rush for their christian indoctrination when given a choice.

It just doesn't happen.

Hak That could work, regarding silent reflection or prayer however part of collective worship involves praying in unity and being led in prayer sometimes, added to this the younger children are still learning how to pray. So I don't think schools should have to refrain from prayers said aloud in their collective worship. I do believe silent prayers work too but do you object to your children hearing prayers said aloud, Hak?

combust I would like schools to move away from schools only catering to the majority. Instead I would like them to be more inclusive, accept and cater for diverse range of needs and interests, without any stigma involved.

capsium- it doesn't sound like that to me. You don't want inclusion, you only to remove the stigma of exclusion. Two different things.

combust explain.

I do see myself as wanting inclusion, but not in a homogenized way, everybody having to conform to an external norm, I want people to be accepted as individuals each with an individual contribution to make.

Having an assembly without worship would be a first good step towards inclusion.

If you want more inclusion then surely the answer is to provide an assembly that is just that - inclusive.

I do not want this because the collective worship element would either have to be hugely watered down, or become non existent. As I have said earlier, I value collective worship. However I do not think there should be any stigma attached to those opting out and there should be meaningful alternative activities provided.

The neutral stance of course would be for everyone to either opt their child in or out of collective worship when enrolling at a school. This is acceptable, again though, only if neither choice was weighted in terms of stigma/preference by the school.

combust

Having an assembly without worship would be a first good step towards inclusion.

Hardly inclusive in terms of providing opportunity for collective worship for those who wanted it, unless you are talking about this group assembling at another time during the school day for this to take place.

You don't want inclusion capsium- you want christian worship because it suits you. A very selfish attitude.

combust And I think feeling entitled enough to actually profess to tell me what I think is extremely arrogant.

It's plain in your words capsium.

You also want Christian worship ^in a way that suits you"

I come up with a brilliant solution, and you reject it because it's no worshippy enough!

And surely children from a Christian homes know how to pray by the time they reach reception?

And no, I don't mind my children hearing prayers, of course I don't. When we go to a church for wedding, funerals, and Christenings they hear loads. They were both choristers as well (I bet that makes your brain sizzle!) .

combust you are attaching additional meaning to my words that does not exist, and was not intended in the writing of them, I would suggest as a result of your own biases and prejudices.

Hak

And no, I don't mind my children hearing prayers, of course I don't. When we go to a church for wedding, funerals, and Christenings they hear loads. They were both choristers as well (I bet that makes your brain sizzle!) .

No it does not surprise me at all. What is slightly contradictory is that you are happy to do this (have actively chosen it) and yet are you not happy for collective worship to take part in assembly. Is it that you are involved in this choice or chose this but in school it happens without your input? But it does not surprise me, IME people are full of all sorts of contradictions.