Believers VS Non-belivers

[edwardcullensotherwoman]

Why is it that if someone believes in something, they will talk about it as exactly that - something they believe in - and not portray it as absolute fact; yet if someone doesn't believe in something, they will say this as an absolute fact and ridicule those who believe?

It's almost as if those who don't believe (in whatever the subject: angels, God, reincarnation) consider themselves superior to those who do, and view those who do as stupid for doing so.

Surely everyone's beliefs are their own belief and opinion - nothing "woo" can be either proven or disproven, so therefore nobody is right or wrong.

It just seems that every thread that starts "Do you believe" on this board ends up in a bun fight with believes defending themselves against non-believers who tell them they're being ridiculous. The clue is in the title of the board - if you don't believe in anything that's likely to be discussed under that heading, just avoid the board!

? Surely you don't believe this Back? So is this very likely? Capsium in case you didn't recognise it that was an example of something said by religious people.

Sunshinemmum you admitted that you felt safe on the prayer and support threads before realising that damaged your case and going back on it.
I'm sure you wish there was a mumsnet rule stopping me from pointing that out :)

Will those who think beliefs can not be challenged be okay with me starting a thread about how I believe the holocaust was faked and promise not to post disagreeing with me?

I can make the title "Only for people who hate Jews" if that will help.

Where does this thread ask for a non Christian viewpoint?

Well I didn't post on that one and I think the poster who did should have resisted the temptation, but you know they only posted a verse from the bible as requested.

Of course the content of the verse is vile and disgusting, but it is in your bible. Atheists didn't make it up. Maybe you should have said "a verse from the parts of the bible that don't involve abusing and murdering women and children".

I thought it was quite hilarious- certainly lifted my spirits. Isn't that what the OP asked- in fact I have just read that passage to my OH and he is sitting chuckling.

To answer the OP - yes lots of atheists probably do feel that way. But I'm inclined to think that's perfectly reasonable.

It seems pretty logical to assume the non-existence of something if there is absolutely no factual evidence of it existing, until some kind of proof is offered to the contrary.
For example, if I announced to you that I believed there were fairies at the bottom of my garden, I would be entitled to my belief, but, given the utter lack of any evidence, it would be perfectly reasonable of you to state as a fact that there were no such thing.

I consider it to be a fact that there is no Father Christmas. Small children believing in him does not change that fact.

I think the fundamental issue might be that believers think their faith is as valid as non believers lack of faith.

I will come out and say I don't believe they are equal. In my opinion science and evidence based thinking are superior. Yes, that's right, I put a value judgement on it. And I suspect many other atheists feel the same and so when there is debate that comes through.

beatingwings, I love that one too. In fact I may be indirectly responsible for it being in the other thread since I have quoted it on MN a number of times.

Another fun bit is the beginning of Matthew chapter 21 which is basically Jesus saying "look guys, I'll wait here. You nip into town and find me a donkey so when I arrive it will look like I'm the Messiah from that old prophecy".

I saw the donkey verses being discussed in a bible reading thread recently and decided not to point out the implications since it would have seemed intrusive. Amusingly they managed to read it through and not get the joke.

sunshine- in that thread a poster quoted from the bible.

I can't see that would be a problem if the bible was a book to be proud of.

You wouldn't have minded if an atheist had quoted psalm 23! But yes that was a leetle bit naughty of them but what harm was actually done. It was the bible after all. What suffering would that have caused? In that example a believer could challenge or ignore. I would prefer the challenge myself. That would be interesting to see a Christian defend that passage. I don't think the op sounded particularly vulnerable btw so the bible passage was unlikely to cause distress.

Capsium in case you didn't recognise it that was an example of something said by religious people.

Duh. I am very duh in terms of recognising what religious people are supposed to believe by atheists (usually), or by superstitious hypocrites in the church...but then Jesus had the same problem. You have to shrug it off, as a believer, my mother was taught all sorts by 'Catholic' nuns that, to my mind amounted to superstition, which lead neatly into witchcraft, for a time, until she got her fingers burnt.

To me the defining line is communicated by the Bible through the Holy Spirit and backed up by life experience. No guarantees, hence faith. You decide what you want to believe. I don't know, but I actually really like, no, I actually really love Jesus and what He stood for and achieved. To me that is most brilliant, subversive and excellent.

I will come out and say I don't believe they are equal. In my opinion science and evidence based thinking are superior. Yes, that's right, I put a value judgement on it. And I suspect many other atheists feel the same and so when there is debate that comes through.

A part of me, I have got to say, really loves this. I am a rebel at heart, and a Christian. I sometimes feel really bad when everybody agrees because the very fleshy part of me thrives on conflict. Is that very Christian? I am & Christian in belief, we expect a certain amount of resistance, albeit not open offensive attacks on MN, OF ALL PLACES.

What i do not like is when you establish a certain affinity with your supposed 'enemies' , known off old, through numerous name changes and they say things like 'I could never be friends with a Christian' and I think we have so much in common apart from the BIG 'I believe' but still I thought you might like me for all our differences and I would actually really help you if push came to shove...and I am a Christian.

Never mind, I still would help you...if push came to shove.

:) capsium

I've seen support threads ddescend into bunfights before, yes, and I think Greens distinctions could be an idea. The 'main' threads eg prayer and tearoom threads are left alone, but on occasion you get someone posting perhaps about their relationship with their dh or about problems at church and someone will come on and start belittling their belief. I'm quite happy for this to happen on threads which invite it like the angels thread or threads asking 'why do you believe' etc etc, and enjoy a robust debate as much as the next person. But I've seen OPs leaving threads before sometimes fairly upset by the derailing.

Nothing wrong with debate and challenge. But there is a place for it. However, it's simply not always cut and dried is it. Still, we can endeavour to respect one another, whatever the nature of the thread.

As for the question from the OP in this thread, I've come across both atheists and Christians who sate their case as fact in rather a dogmatic fashion. I'd like both to give room for debate, but that's life. I quite enjoy it all really...

You capsium! Fellow rebel...

Should say UK capsium. Stupid phone

Oh bloody stupid phone. YY. Not you and not UK.

Don't know Sunshine. To be very honest I am not very 'churchy', although my faith is strong. I don't know what to say in terms of support, among professed believers, often. I am not very diplomatic, in terms of differences in faith. I have always liked a challenge...

My life fits, by the way, and I have had my fair share of challenges.

Mad Hi! Yes you are right, respect, I think. Sometimes I just like the engagement tbh. You know when sometimes people are 'pussy footing' around you in real life and the absolute challenge is ^refreshing.

However it is never nice when you get real bile. I like these people I talk to and want to engage and have a conversation...

Sunshine Exactly. I can, sometimes, be made to feel like a very small child, by the staunchest of atheists, just for being, well a Christian.

I am not even uneducated, or unscientific or any thing else....It is just, at the same time, I have believe and faith and I cling onto this, for dear life sometimes....

What can I say? My life would not be the way it has turned out if what was scientifically seen as true was true in all circumstances...I am not going to reject this belief, to do so would be rejecting my past.

But to an atheist, that belief IS unscientific, whether or not the believer may be well up on all sorts of other scientific facts.

When a religious person expresses astonishment that atheists are often so dismissive of religious beliefs, I often feel like asking them whether they would not be just as dismissive if they met an (adult) person who believed in the tooth fairy.

I realise it must be annoying and probably offensive to have your profoundly-held religious beliefs compared with a belief in a children's make-believe character, but to an atheist there is not really a distinction - they are both just things that human beings have made up to make them feel better about the scary things in life.

I think the fundamental issue might be that believers think their faith is as valid as non believers lack of faith.

I will come out and say I don't believe they are equal. In my opinion science and evidence based thinking are superior.

And I have got to (just) say that I think my (Christian) faith is superior, as it is God given. Although I would never argue this, because it is not what arguing is about. The faith comes first and the evidence follows...