Believers VS Non-belivers

[edwardcullensotherwoman]

Why is it that if someone believes in something, they will talk about it as exactly that - something they believe in - and not portray it as absolute fact; yet if someone doesn't believe in something, they will say this as an absolute fact and ridicule those who believe?

It's almost as if those who don't believe (in whatever the subject: angels, God, reincarnation) consider themselves superior to those who do, and view those who do as stupid for doing so.

Surely everyone's beliefs are their own belief and opinion - nothing "woo" can be either proven or disproven, so therefore nobody is right or wrong.

It just seems that every thread that starts "Do you believe" on this board ends up in a bun fight with believes defending themselves against non-believers who tell them they're being ridiculous. The clue is in the title of the board - if you don't believe in anything that's likely to be discussed under that heading, just avoid the board!

I'm sure all those things are used to justify bad stuff but the bible is supposed to have been inspired by god so you'd hold it to more scrutiny and expect it to be superior? Why doesn't god say the same things to people?

The chances are men and women who are being abused have heard this sentiment too.

Sorry that quote is taken from the video peacefuloptimist posted about Islam. About 10 minutes in.

I can't watch anymore sorry. "No don't leave your abusive partner, carry on letting him beat you and the kids because I'm sure it's all part of a wise plan".

It is a long video headinhands which you cant really summarise after watching 10 minutes. However, its your choice to watch it or not. Btw its a bit disingenious of you to present what he said in the sentence you summarised above. He hated his father because of his abuse of his mother. He stopped believing in God because of the abuse of his mother by his father. I hardly think he thought his mother should stay with his father who beat him and his mother. You are projecting your own preconceptions about what you think Islam teaches on to him. All he was saying was as a child he couldnt understand what was happening to him and his mother and why God allowed it and that this ultimately caused him to become an atheist. Don't you agree with him?

What I disagree with is that he sees any wisdom in god allowing the abuse. He said it, not me. I would find it appalling whoever said it and I've heard Christians say similar so it's not a Islam specific explanation. Would you ever allow someone to beat up someone you love if you could stop it. How could it ever ever be wise to let abuse continue?

It makes no difference where he says it, it's offensive. It doesn't matter if the rest is nice and fluffy, that sort of sentiment is game over for me.

Give me examples of how it might be wise to let abuse continue.

He could not stop it. He was a child. He is explaining why God did not stop it, a question you seem to be asking repeatedly. If you are not interested in the answer fine, dont watch it but dont misrepresent someone after listening to them for just 10 minutes.

How can I misrepresent someone by quoting them? You haven't answered my question. how might it be wise to let abuse continue

I haven't paraphrased him. I was careful to get the full quote. I also made it clear where I added a word for clarity. Someone who thinks domestic abuse is sometimes wise is not someone I'm interested in listening to.

This is a straw man argument. You have taken a small portion (one line) of what he said and misrepresented it to epic proportions. No one is arguing it is wise to let abuse continue. But whose responsibility is it to stop it? A God that you dont even believe in or human beings who are endowed with the ability to solve their own problems and stop abuse if they have the will. Now dont say to me why do you believe in a God who doesnt stop it, I have given you the link if you want the answer watch the video. But it is ridiculous to me that you are angry at a God you dont believe in for not preventing something which is perfectly within human capacity to stop. You even acknowledged he encouraged people to go to an event about spousal abuse, hardly encouraging women or men to sit and put up with it is he.

No one is arguing it is wise to let abuse continue

He did! He said "I was too young to see the wisdom" I wonder what possible wisdom there is in it?

misrepresented it to epic proportions

Not a chance. He said it. That's not even a small misrepresentation.

whose responsibility is it to stop it

All of us as you're asking but that's not the issue here is it, the issue is that the man in the video feels there was a wisdom to god letting it continue. And I wonder what possible wisdom that could be?

you are angry at a god

I'm not angry. I'm curious in what you think and how you justify it.

encouraged people to go

That would make sense if he saw no wisdom in DV. He felt god allowed it to continue for some wise reason. How is he to know that god isn't allowing some of the people in the congregation to be abused for some wise reason? How would god have felt if, while he was busy allowing it to happen for some wise reason that the mum up and left with he kids?

Essentially it seems to me the biggest problem atheists have with God is that He created humans in the first place and that He gave them free will and intellect in the first place. I wonder if you get as angry at atheist scientists who make terrible weapons for example recently read somewhere that some scientists recently recreated the deadly spanish flu virus. How do you justify the use of science for that? Science and scientists must be completely evil then right because they use it to make weapons of mass destruction and sit by a watch whilst their creations are used to kill innocent people.

sorry meant

I think the same as the guy in the video. Watch it to the end and you will see what he actually has to say not what you think he has to say.

How would god have felt if, while he was busy allowing it to happen for some wise reason that the mum up and left with he kids?

I can say with 100% certainty God would want it to end. God did do something to stop it. He created people like you and me to stop it.

On the authority of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudree (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say, “Whosoever of you sees an evil, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then [let him change it] with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart — and that is the weakest of faith.” [Muslim]

We have the power to stop it too so should we be blamed as well for not stepping in and stopping it.

Let me ask you BigDorrit, do you agree in scientists using their knowledge to build weapons of mass destruction that are used to kill innocent people. Do you think they should be tried for crimes against humanity for the evil they unleash on the earth.

atheist scientists who make terrible weapons

I would hope that god would be morally superior to me. I'm not maintaining that humans are perfect and wonderful but if I'm going to believe in a god I want him to be incredible. I don't want him to be able to watch children being punched and choose not to act out of some wisdom. That's not a god I'm going to get excited about. I know it's wrong because if a human said he was allowing abuse to occur because he had reason to think it was of benefit somehow I would think, at the very least, that he was a bit odd.

Again I'm not angry. Secondly I'm interested in how you justify and defend what that man said: That at least sometimes god allows children to be abused out of wisdom. What's happening the other times? Is it always wise to let abuse happen?

That man, by saying god was allowing it to happen obviously feels that god could stop it and does sometimes. What about when the abuser goes all the way and kills the partner and kids. What's happened there? Is that still part of the plan? You see, if he'd said ^we live in a fallen world and god can't intervene * then great although we would have gone on to miracles and healing etc but because he stipulated that god could stop it but doesn't and that there was sometimes wisdom in not stopping it, well now you're talking about a god whose watching suffering he can stop but doesn't. And that he deliberately doesn't act.