Believers VS Non-belivers

[edwardcullensotherwoman]

Why is it that if someone believes in something, they will talk about it as exactly that - something they believe in - and not portray it as absolute fact; yet if someone doesn't believe in something, they will say this as an absolute fact and ridicule those who believe?

It's almost as if those who don't believe (in whatever the subject: angels, God, reincarnation) consider themselves superior to those who do, and view those who do as stupid for doing so.

Surely everyone's beliefs are their own belief and opinion - nothing "woo" can be either proven or disproven, so therefore nobody is right or wrong.

It just seems that every thread that starts "Do you believe" on this board ends up in a bun fight with believes defending themselves against non-believers who tell them they're being ridiculous. The clue is in the title of the board - if you don't believe in anything that's likely to be discussed under that heading, just avoid the board!

Science is not seen as a sham or an illusion.

I don't know so much about Muslim beliefs on how & when the world was created, but lots of Christians have told me that the reason there is evidence that the world is much older than a few thousand years is that god (or sometimes the devil) fixed it so we'd think that. The fossils were added in already old. The light from distant stars was given a head start and so on. Sometimes they say he changed the way physics works so it went faster at first.

Also we have things like god holding the sun still for a bit. Not to mention flooding the world deeper than the tallest mountain.

There's loads more of that as I'm sure you know. Not all Christians think all of those things, but even the smaller miracles defy the laws of physics so presumably god can turn them off when inconvenient.

As for not always answering prayers etc the link that was posted to the why won't god heal amputees examines that much better than I could.

Rushing a bit. More later.

Some people who say they truly believe in God often seem to act rather as though they don't.

I agree with you Errol. As for taking away our free will, it takes away our choice to believe or not to believe because we know for a fact God exists but yes we can still determine our own actions but again that makes us heavily accountable for what we do. To give you an example of a story from the Quran about the disciples of Jesus.

[And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."They said, "We wish to eat from it and to be stronger in our faith and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses." Jesus, the son of Mary said, "O Allah , our Lord, send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers." Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds." (Chapter 5, verses 112-115)

Because they asked for an extraordinary miracle and were granted it they were now more accountable then others because of it. If they were to go back on their faith they would be punished more severely then someone who had not seen the miracle and so had some excuse for their doubt.

Just to reiterate:

'To understand the full context, verses before and after have to be also taken into consideration starting from verse 110 until verse 120. In verse 110, Allah starts with the great miracles that He favored Jesus (peace be upon him) with.

Many people expect miracles to believe; however, a true believer is able to see the truth without experiencing any miracles.

Note the Prophet Muhammad’s companions did not ask him for any miracles; it was only the disbelievers of Quraish (the Arab tribe of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH) who asked for miracles and when the Prophet (peace be upon him) showed them miracles that Allah favored him with, they still did not believe.

So here Jesus’s disciples saw great miracles from Allah, such as raising the dead, yet they dared asking for another miracle; therefore, the response of Jesus (peace be upon him) “Ittaqullah”, meaning “fear Allah” and translated in the above verses as “Observe your duty to Allah”.

Unfortunately the translation does not convey the proper appreciative meaning. This is an expression of blame, where Jesus is blaming his disciples for requesting such a miracle; therefore, the following statement “If you are true believers”.

Jesus (peace be upon him) feared the consequences of this trial upon his disciples and asked them to depend on Allah for their provision.

When the disciples insisted, Jesus (peace be upon him) supplicated to Allah to bring forth the miracle. However, Allah warned them that whosoever disbelieves, shall receive the most severe punishment.

So disbelieving after experiencing divine miracles is one of the worst sins since knowing by seeing is different than knowing by hearsay'.^

Back once again you are answering me according to your Judeo christian understanding of religion and God which I fully understand as that is your background. Islamically we dont believe the Earth is a set number of years old there is no mention of this in the Quran. It could be 4000 or 4 billion years the Quran does not give us specifics on this so we dont have that contradiction. Also the Quran teaches us that the Earth existed before we existed. Not in terms of days but an unspecific length of time before we came to be on it.

As for your previous comment:

peacefuloptimist I don't think that Muslims would be so foolish as to think that just because the word 'verse' can translate as 'evidence means that the Quran must be evidence, but I don't know how else to read what you said there.

No. If you ask muslims what is the miracle of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH they will say the Quran. It is seen as evidence of his truthfulness and of the existence of God through the guidance it provides. I dont want to turn this thread in to a discussion about why Muslims consider the Quran to be the word of God and an evidence or proof of the prophethood of Muhammed PBUH as I really dont have the stamina to open that door right now but its not because the word verse means evidence its because when we read the Quran we see evidence of its truth.

I think that being more accountable is a good thing. I don't know much about Islam, but I'm inclined to think that the Christian doctrine of salvation by faith gives some people the idea they've got an eternal get-out-of-jail-free card.

As an atheist, I accept that I am accountable for my own choices. Doesn't every ethical person?

Of course, I don't believe there's going to be any post-death judgement - if I had proof of God and knew he was going to do that, it'd be like living in a totalitarian state. If I had proof of God and he was a loving father... then I'd have nothing to fear whether I always managed my best or not but I'd want to. (I think that's actually how nice believers we meet on these boards behave pretty much).

Maybe god thought that creating a universe was miracle enough.

Maybe god thought that creating a universe was miracle enough

Which god? Throughout history every theist thought it was their own god and would think anyone who attributed it to a different god was wrong. God would have foreseen that flaw?

Many people expect miracles to believe; however, a true believer is able to see the truth without experiencing any miracles.

Many people need a reason to believe, that's a good thing. The problem with applauding an ability to believe without just cause is you could believe anything. Not caring about having proof is dangerous. Admiring an ability to believe without cause is exactly the sort of thing you would find in a belief system that had no basis in reality.

miracles not being necessarily the best way to get people to believe. They lose their power and credibility over time. They can be attributed to different things. So it doesnt make sense to base your whole faith on a supernatural, one-off, unrepeatable miracle.

So disbelieving after experiencing divine miracles is one of the worst sins since knowing by seeing is different than knowing by hearsay'.

See what's happened there? You've explained that you understand how someone might have logical reason to reject a miracle as evidence of a particular god but apparently your god doesnt even have the same level of understanding as you in that he doesnt appreciate the limitations of miracles and would punish someone who saw a miracle and didn't believe. Upshot is you are morally superior to your god.

The second bit you quoted from me are not my words but I will respond to it as I posted it. The difference here is that in that example being discussed is a particular miracle was asked for and that particular miracle was granted and so if after that people would disbelieve it would be considered a huge sin (basically getting what you want and still being . They have no excuse to not believe now because they have been shown the miracle they asked for. Or for example the one that use to always puzzle me as a child was Pharoah and Moses PBUH, when Moses PBUH parted the sea through the power of God and Pharoah and his troops then go and chase him in. You would think that would give you pause, I mean even if you didnt believe in the God of Moses but according to the story it didnt have an impact. Other posters here have said similar that it wouldnt have an impact on their behaviour either if they saw a miracle and did have indisputable evidence that it was from God. This is what that quote is talking about.

If you read my earlier quotes from the Quran you would have seen that the Quran acknowledges some of the points in my earlier post that you quoted. For example that people will just attribute what they see to something else (i.e. this is clear magic, this is a brain malfunction, delusion, superior alien). The Quran makes that point for why God does not always reveal Himself through miracles. There is also another verse from the Quran that says when people are told about the miracles of Prophets from the past and their miracles they say 'these are the tales of the ancients' (paraphrased). These are not my own ideas these are things I have gleaned from reading my own holy book. It is the Quran that teaches muslims not to base their faith on miracles alone not me.

Now there was an interesting point made by CorusKate earlier about why does God show supernatural miracles at sometimes and not others. For example why was Jesus PBUH given the ability to heal the sick, to raise the dead and not other Prophets. My guess is it is something to do with the character of the people of that time or the role that particular prophet had to play. For example Moses having to free his people from enslavement from a vastly superior hostile force or Jesus PBUH having to convince a hostile, skeptical, entrenched establishment that he was the messiah. My speculations but I don't really know the answer but might go and query it now.

wow loads of typos there. Its not my own Holy book btw.

they have no excuse to not believe

But you listed reasons why they logically might not believe. So you can understand why and with that in mind would feel it unfair for god to punish a disbeliever in that scenario?

Head, when you believed, did you think those that didn't believe in your god were wrong?

With regards to the parting of the waves of I witnessed that I would wonder why god felt the need to drown the pursuing army. Why couldn't he just teleport them over or some such miracle that didn't cause so many deaths. He just wanted to get them across and away from the army? Why all the dramatics? Mind you this is the same god who killed the babies of the Egyptians instead of the pharaoh himself so he likes a bit of terrorism and needless violence.

No I dont think its unfair. When you ask someone to specifically show you something, they show it to you and then you deny what you saw, I think you never really cared to see that thing anyway your mind was made up.

I thought they had the wrong god. I thought my god was real and other religions were false as was the teaching of the time. It's been a while since I went to church but that seemed to be the thrust. Has it changed much?

deny what you saw

But you listed reasons why they might attribute it to something other than god such as thinking it was magic or they were suffering from psychosis or whatever.

So you feel it is fair for god to punish someone who doesn't attribute a miracle to god. What punishment is it?

To be more specific I think people asked for the impossible because they thought it was impossible. Then when shown it is possible they think, I dont want to change anyway so I'll just pretend I didnt see it or will just carry on doing what I want anyway. There is another story in the Quran about a Prophet called Saleh PBUH who was sent to an arab tribe (dont think he is mentioned in the bible or torah) which really emphasised this. His people asked for a specific miracle for God to cause a camel to come out of the rock that looked a specific way and was pregnant this many months etc. When God caused it to happen and then made as a condition that for one day the female camel and her offspring should be the only ones allowed to drink water from the nearby water source and the next day the people of that town or village could drink (by the way nothing was stopping the people from storing the water on their day so they could have it for the next day so its not a case of having a terrible burden of being without water or something like that) certain people in that town who had originally opposed Prophet Saleh PBUH and were furious that he had been able to produce this miracle and so gain more followers decided as a group to kill the two camels so that the blame would be spread out between them. Now I dont really care whether you believe this story actually happened or whether you think its some sort of legend or fairy tale. The point is that people did not want to believe, they saw a miracle and still did not want to believe despite knowing the origin of that miracle (we are talking about the people who witnessed it firsthand not people who heard it secondhand or were born hundreds/thousands of years later not believing it like you or me), therefore they are accountable for their actions. Nothing unfair about that.

the parting of the waves of I witnessed that I would wonder why god felt the need to drown the pursuing army. Why couldn't he just teleport them over

The point was that God was testing them. Are you going to believe in me now that I have shown you this huge miracle or are you going to continue on in your stubbornness and carry out an injustice against the people of Moses PBUH by going back on your word. Its interesting that you question God's actions but not that of the Pharoah and his forces. Why would they go back on their word to free Moses and his people? Why did they enslave them and oppress them so badly in the first place? Why did they kill their baby boys? Atheists blame God for suffering caused by human actions and when God stops it you still blame him anyway. What do you think that pursuing army would have done to Moses and his people. Given them hugs and kisses? No they would have slaughtered those who resisted them and taken them back and enslaved them again. Oh yeah but God is the one who is wrong for allowing them to taste the consequences of their own actions.

I don't think it's a church or religious thing I think it's a mindset thing. Take your own experience Head, when you believed in god, you thought your beliefs were real and anyone with different beliefs was wrong or false. Now that you don't believe in god you think that you are right and anyone with different beliefs is wrong.

My church doesn't think that everyone else is wrong. If it did I wouldn't attend.

It was the teaching of the church although I did move around a bit and don't recall any of them saying all faiths led to god unless that's not what you're saying? Do you think all beliefs are right? Why does the bible take such a hard line on other faiths?

No I don't think it's about me having a particular mindset. Isn't it usual to be happy with what you think and think that's it's the right thing to think and to change what you think if you are presented with evidence to the contrary? Do you think what you think is wrong? Not that you might be wrong but that you are actually wrong? I assume not or you would change. You feel it is right to think what you think. Do you think there is anyone who thinks something wrong?

knowing the origin of that miracle

You said someone might think it was magic or aliens. So you accept there could be people who would reason that it wasn't from god. See that I use the word reason there. They logically reject it. You said that yourself. And yet your god would still punish them. That's not fair. Doesn't it bother you that you are fairer than the god you are describing?

what do you think that the pursuing army would have done?

So drowning them was the only solution? He could have done anything! He could have suddenly made them naked/turned their weapons into jelly/frozen them to the spot/teleported them back to their houses the list of non violent solutions is endless.

Imagine someone with a gun is chasing you and you have lots of supernatural powers. Is drowning them your best idea?

when god stops it you still blame him anyway

I've never seen him stop suffering, I've never seen him stop anything. Look, I don't think any of these things happened obviously, it's your reasoning that I'm interested in.

So you feel it is fair for god to punish someone who doesn't attribute a miracle to god. What punishment is it?

Isnt interesting how this whole debate has been rewritten. I started off by asking atheists what it would take for them to believe in God and several said the only thing that would prove it to them was a miracle that could only be attributed to God. Then when I explained the problem with relying on miracles I was told that of course God doesnt want to have to show people miracles because he wants them to believe with zero evidence. Then I was told even if someone was shown a miracle and they knew 100% it was from God they might believe in God but they wouldnt change how they lived their lives. Then you are trying to tell me that people should be allowed to disbelieve in God even if they see a miracle that they know 100% is caused by God and then you ask me that question. Wow I have really been lead up the garden path here hey. So miracles are not 100% evidence of God's existence then even if you know that they are from God and nothing else. So why dont you just start off by saying there is nothing that would prove to me that God exists or would make me believe in God, I am happy as I am and dont want to change. Saves time dont you think.