Believers VS Non-belivers

[edwardcullensotherwoman]

Why is it that if someone believes in something, they will talk about it as exactly that - something they believe in - and not portray it as absolute fact; yet if someone doesn't believe in something, they will say this as an absolute fact and ridicule those who believe?

It's almost as if those who don't believe (in whatever the subject: angels, God, reincarnation) consider themselves superior to those who do, and view those who do as stupid for doing so.

Surely everyone's beliefs are their own belief and opinion - nothing "woo" can be either proven or disproven, so therefore nobody is right or wrong.

It just seems that every thread that starts "Do you believe" on this board ends up in a bun fight with believes defending themselves against non-believers who tell them they're being ridiculous. The clue is in the title of the board - if you don't believe in anything that's likely to be discussed under that heading, just avoid the board!

I think that when it comes to god, people come to their own conclusions. When it comes to faith, there are those who think only their way is right and everyone else is wrong. Similarly, there are those who adopt an "all paths lead to.." approach. It's the "I'm ok, you're not ok" mindset vs "I'm ok, you're ok" mindset.

the consequences of their actions

What like those sinful babies he killed? Yeah, they had it coming.

it's interesting that you question god's actions

Gods supposed to be morally superior but his actions strike me as that of a terrorist with a penchant for sick mind games. Again it's how you are justifying it that is the issue here. Imagine that the army needed to get rid of an evil dictator. Imagine they said they weren't going to kill him but they'd kill all the babies instead. Wouldn't you find that utterly barbaric and outrageous. And yet here we see god doing it, a god who, you assure me, is morally superior to me. Why do I find it barbaric if it's not? Why don't you find it despicable for god to target babies and not the actual person he had the issue with? Imagine I get done for murder but the judge says he's not going to send me to prison but someone else?

Headinhands I could stay here and answer your points but what difference would it make. As you said you dont even believe in the story so it would be a waste of time arguing about it anyway. You interpret the story from the perspective of someone who does not want to believe in God and I would interpret it from the perspective of someone who does believe in God. So what would we achieve really. You dont want to believe in God so you wont. I can sit here arguing with you till Im blue in the face and even if I produced a miracle of epic proportions what some of you have made clear is that it wouldnt make a difference anyway. So I think I will get on with my weekend and respectfully say to 'You be your way and to me mine'.

a miracle that is 0 caused by god

But you said some people might attribute it elsewhere. Also I think I understand what that person means about it not changing their life. It would make you wonder why god didn't get more involved. How he can turn a blind eye. If I notice 10 people drowning and I choose to save one but let the other 9 drown what possible morally superior spin can you put on that? How could I trust a god who can watch a child being attacked and murdered and choose not to act when I know I would if I could?

you don't even believe in the story

But you do and that's what I'm interested in. How you get it to tally with a god who supposedly vastly more sophisticated than you in terms of ethics and so on.

For what it's worth Dione I think you're okay but what you believe is probably wrong. I think it's possible for people to be okay but believe things that aren't true. It's also possible to have no beliefs and not be okay. I'm guessing you think the 'other faiths are false' line is wrong? So you're happy to make a value judgement on the people who think that: "they're wrong but I'm right".

I'd be interested in how mainstream this "all faiths lead to god anyway" line is among Christianity. Might go do some digging and find some articles (that back up my opinion, (because I'm right))

Sigh, I feel as if I am repeating myself a lot on here but once again I will say Headinhands your understanding is based on the Judeo-christian tradition you grew up with. I will assume that you dont know there are some major differences between the Quranic versions of famous prophet's stories and the Biblical. We don't have the orders for babies and children killed for the sins of their elders, not in the quranic narrative of the story of Moses or other verses. It is 9 plagues, and it was after being given the 9th respite that Pharoah went back on his promise and said .."Kill the sons of those who have believed with him and keep their women alive." (Quran, 40:25). Your trying to extend the argument further in to talking about suffering and again this seems to be a particular problem with people who have grown up with the judeo-christian tradition. I remember in school learning William Blake's poem 'The Tyger' and being puzzled by this line 'Did He who made the lamb make thee'. What was the contradiction? Anyway that is a whole other discussion about the difference in the Judeo-christian and Islamic concept of God which is beyond the remit of this discussion (and frankly I need to get back to rl).

people come to their own conclusion

And when they conclude there is a god they overwhelmingly decide it's the god of their culture so it's not as free range as we would like to think.

It's not a value judgement, it is a psychological position whereby one accepts that the decisions they make for themselves are ok and the decisions that others make for themselves are ok too. It doesn't just apply to religion. It applies to all other apects of life whereby people negatively judge others because they are not the same as them.

I'm on another thread at the moment discussing ONS. The "I'm ok, you're ok" people are saying that the decision to have sex is an individual one. If you go for it on the 1st date, 50th date or wedding night as long as it's right for you, no one else should judge. This comes from respecting the fact that each individual is the expert in their own sex lives and that outsiders are not qualified to make that decision for anyone else. No judgement. The "I'm ok, you're not ok" people are arguing that people should only have sex the way they do (marriage/committed relationship) and that those who do differently are disgusting/loose etc. Plenty of judgement.

what was the contradiction

I'd enjoy hearing how you think the two gods differ and your thoughts on suffering.

I get about making decisions and how it's healthy to accept that what is right for you isn't right for me and all that and have known about the 'you're alright' mindset for sometime and get how it relates to our outlook and the dialogue we have about ourselves and the world around us and all that but the problem is that you have this book that doesn't say that. You have a book that says xyz is wrong. Why doesn't the bible say what you're saying? Why is your reasoning superior?

Absolutely Big. It is a mindset that exists in believer/non believers alike. Just as the other positions exist in people regardless of religion, gender, class, nationality, colour or caste.

What mindset does god have?

My views can be summarised by this video. Its long but much more eloquent then how I could explain it and useful if you want to look at islamic views on suffering.

The bible is a series of books written by different people over a very long time. It, like other books reflect the mindsets of the authors and editors. Similarly in Christian believers, it is the mindset of the believer that ultimately matters. So "I'm ok, you're ok" believers find relevance in "love your neighbour" type passages and "I'm ok, you're not ok" believers find relevance in the "suffer ye not a witch to live" type passages.

The mindset is predominant, what comes after is justification for that mindset, be it religious, political or idealogical.

What mindset does god have?

I assume that for you god does not have a mindset because god doesn't exist. For believers this has been a topic of theological discussion and debate for millennia.

Sorry I should have been more specific. What do you think god's mindset is.

Yes that's the beauty of the bible, it can be used to justify horrid behaviour because it contains horrid things being done to people. So you appreciate that people bring their own mindset to bear when writing the bible. Do you think witches should be killed? Do you believe god communicates with his followers? Why do you suppose he communicates conflicting ideas. Take women bishops for example. Why can't he tell all his followers the same thing? Why convince person a that it's very much what he wants but person b he doesn't want it. To me it looks like he is deliberately confusing people or he's not actually talking to people and they are making their own minds up as they would about anything.

Big, I meant the mindsets exist in believers and non believers alike. I have never told you or anyone else that they are going to burn in hell.

Head, history, science, religion and politics can be, have been and are used to justify doing horrid things to people. As I have said, mindset comes first, justification comes later.

*I was too young to see the wisdom in [god] allowing my mother to suffer the violence and abuse of my father"

Ugh.

That anyone would think it wise for someone to be abused, all witnessed by their frightened children. The government and authorities take a very dim view of domestic violence. I doubt they'd see benefit to it and as such seek to stop the suffering. Can you imagine using that logic as a defence in court. Imagine you're up in court for not preventing your child from being systematically abused by a family member.'Yes your honour I did nothing to stop my child being abused and beaten every night but I thought it wise to let it carry on, you might not think so, you'll just have to trust me'. That man says that about god and probably expects me not to find it ridiculous and disgusting. Another thing, he urges the congregation to go to the spousal abuse seminar the next day, what happens if god is letting that abuse happen as part of a plan. Shouldn't he leave be?