Does anyone want to talk about loss of faith?

[plotmissinginaction]

Just wondered off the back of the thread about christianity currently in AIBU if there was anyone else around who had once had faith but now doesn't.

I came to Christianity as a teenager when I was rather vulnerable and had first left my dysfunctional home (alcoholism in a parent for starters). I was very drawn to the sense of family there.

I went for it all in, was probably very annoying actually. I went to college and joined a church there. Then I got caught up in an abusive relationship and of course the church were the first people I turned to for help. They were toxic! Turned on me, said all the same things that he was saying and worse. Still I dropped out of college (to escape this guy) and went to bible school (by the skin of my teeth as I was told the wouldn't want some one 'like me' there.

Bible school was a new kind of hell. Very extreme. I was by this stage suffering from PTSD but told I must not see a Dr and that it was demonic activity that was a result of my own lack of faith. Once something was prayed for it was meant to be healed and if it wasn't then you didn't have enough faith. I had Christian counselling (from totally unqualified people) but was suffering nightmares, panic attacks, depression, flashbacks. I also so witnessed some very unpleasant treatment of other people that still disturbs me. A girl who was sexually abused as a child being made fun of in front of thousands of people in a prayer session, a gay friend being given his one prayer and abandoned then ending up in a psychiatric ward after throwing himself out of a car for being so sure he was going to hell. After a year I left the church and immediately felt better, saw a Dr, got anti depressants and a therapist and began the process of picking my life back up.

But it was a very sad, sad thing. I had really believed (although Christians now tell me that I can't have really believed or I wouldn't have lost my faith) and it was a great loss. Now having been back to uni and studied feminism Christianity just doesn't fit with my world view anymore but I still feel a bit of jealousy when I see my old bible school friends with their faith in tact.

Your story sounds frighteningly similar to that of a good friend of mine. She describes it as Spiritual Rape. What her - and your - church did is no more about God than physical rape is about love. It's about control.

I'm not a Christian, myself, so I can't really speak to why you should or shouldn't believe X/Y/Z, but maybe go back to what it was about Christianity (not the church in particular) that appealed to you in the first place, and take a second look. Maybe you can find a way to incorporate some of that into your personal belief system. Or maybe you can find another church, or even another faith/religion, that's a better fit.

Sorry to hear about your friend. It was spiritual abuse I think, not something that gets talked about much. There is a scary amount of power control in churches.

It sounds as if you went through some terrible things at the hands of Christians, and I am not surprised that you walked away from that church and from your faith. I'm very glad to hear that you are picking your life up and healing from the effects of what you went through.

Stories like this make me feel sad and angry, because the experiences you describe are so extreme, so far from what happens in most churches, and so far from what Christianity is about for most people.

The people who say you can't have really believed or you wouldn't have lost your faith are talking utter rubbish losing your faith, doubting, being furious at God and at the church are all absolutely normal parts of the life of faith. There are plenty of Christians who are feminists (I'm one!), plenty of Christians who want to see the church welcome and celebrate gay marriage there are plenty of Christians who are very different from the ones at your old church.

In losing your faith you have lost something very precious, and I empathise with your jealousy when you see people who still have the certainty that you don't any more. That black-and-white certainty is one kind of faith but only one kind. The experience of questioning and rejecting, of seeing what doesn't work, what has been damaging, what doesn't tally with our experience is a vital stage in the life of faith. Some people find at this stage that they just can't believe any more; some people go through to find a different kind of belief -- one that is changed, perhaps happier with mysteries and contradictions and ambiguities.

I am not saying you should still be a Christian. It sounds like it would be impossible for you at the moment. Maybe you will one day come back to it, to a different kind of faith, or a different kind of church. Whatever transpires, I hope you'll find a loving, nurturing community that is able to help you heal and grow and form loving relationships with others. (If you do that, for me, regardless of what the sign over the door is, you will have found the church.)

I'm really sorry you had such a rough time of it, and sadly understand too much of it, though what I went through was different in many ways and I've managed to come out still believing and loving God, but a bit more careful to choose who I listen to and let define me!

I got saved when I was in early 20s, having had a pretty traumatic life up until that point. I was on fire, and very passionate and possibly a bit naïve. I went to Bible college, and did encounter some of the "if you're not sorted/healed you don't have enough faith" attitude, which I personally think is a very narrow minded and a cop out to dealing with the question of why God allows suffering/bad things to happen. It's also a very prideful attitude. A dear lady I knew died if cancer and I hear some people say it was lack of faith in the Church... Which is just not biblical.

Anyway, fortunately I had a lovely lady who really helped me and explained that healing, and faith, is a process. I was able to work through my issues and can honestly say I'm sorted now. However the church I was in a couple years ago had a couple other issues and I got really badly burnt out, and wasn't far off losing my faith over it. I'm so glad I had some good Christian friends at the time outside and inside that church who allowed me to rant it through with them. I left that church (on good terms) and moved away, and God has been taking me through another healing process since. I'm no where near as on fire as I used to be, and that makes me sad sometimes, but I'm in a much better place now, and a lot more mature. I go to a new church now, that is a faithy type of church, but for sure not one that ever tells you something didn't happen because you didn't have enough faith. I think if that were true the disciples would never have achieved anything!

Anyway, I don't know if my experience helps you at all, sometimes it's nice to know you're not so alone. I hope you can find a new Church that is a bit more focused on the love if God, after all the bible says the only thing that matters is faith working through love.

I heard Justin Welby speaking this weak live on Radio 2, and he covered how they lost their first child at 9 months old in a car crash. It was really emotional and powerful, made both me & DH cry. I've never heard a Church leader be so open and honest about suffering, and the fact that you don't just get over it, but you learn to rebuild your life around it. I'll see if I can find the clip as I found it really helpful.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01ydxyc

I'd recommend the whole clip, but the but where he talks about his daughter is about 17.30 in.

Hi plot. I'm an ex christian but my loss of faith wasn't really caused by a church or individual. I have thought I'd like to have some sort of secular equivalent to a church, a club that met often with a good cause. Bit obviously not that much as I've not done anything about it!

It's interesting as a Catholic our theology is very different and so we don't believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which can tie some Protestants up in knots when they try to explain people who have stopped believing as "never being saved". For Catholics salvation is not an event but a process as a previous poster mentioned. It is God's grace working in us and our co-operation with that grace that brings us to salvation. We can completely turn way from God but come back to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) and if sincere come back like the Prodigal Son to the loving Father who is always running to meet us with open arms.

I am sorry that you were treated so badly. The church and bible college sound as though they were very toxic. It is dreadful that you were told that you hadn't been healed because you didn't have enough faith. That sort of teaching is in my opinion bullshit and makes me angry. Bad things happen to good people and their level of faith seems to have little or nothing to do with it. Weren't almost all of the disciples thrown in prison or killed for their faith? Also, I don't think anyone has the right to tell you that you never believed. That is something that only you can comment on. There's a wide variety of Christians out there and in my experience most wouldn't agree with the people that have spoken to you.

I think I would find that terrifying Looking, are you not always scared that you might be on the wrong side of saved when the moment comes?

Thanks for the link, I listened this morning, it was very moving and thought provoking.

Sometimes I have considered the Quaker church. I like that there is no hierarchy there and the sitting in silence together sounds quite nice. I still consider myself to be a spiritual person or I would like to be a spiritual person one day.

Just to add I liked what he said about nothing being wasted. Sometimes I wonder what it is I am meant to be doing with all these experiences I have had, I have always felt like there was work I was supposed to do but never knew what it was.

You are not "saved" and "unsaved" - Catholic theology believes that God looks at our entire life and we even still have mercy after death as we believe in Purgatory (which is Biblical). It's Protestant theology that says if you didn't say the right words at the right time or screw up that you are "unsaved".

Catholics believe that we are created good by a loving, merciful God but we need to be saved from sin. Protestant theology believes we are need Jesus to "cover" us so God doesn't see how repellent we are.

Calvinism is the logical extreme - no free will and we are all predestined for Heaven or Hell.

Catholics believe all people Catholic or not can go to heaven and that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ - not just believers.

Plotmuss

Sorry on phone will reply later! Had some thoughts on your last post Plot..

plotmissinginaction Your experience sounds horrific and is most certainly abusive. I know in my church (CofE) you would be counselled to get expert secular help for your problems while being supported spiritually within the church. Different churches have different theologies and some are downright evil. There is no saved or unsaved, we are all God's children who He loves. Unfortunately, some churches specifically prey on vulnerable people to increase their numbers and for what they believe is their own spiritual salvation.

If you are drawn to the Quaker church then you should go, there are many paths to God and maybe that is the one He is calling you down.

Plot I feel so sad at the experience you had, and so angry at those who put you through it. It was indeed spiritual abuse, and the thought that there are churches and colleges out there practising this kind of stuff makes me sick to my stomach.

As niminy says this is not what Christianity is about and most certainly not what Jesus is about. If we look at the person of Jesus, this is where we can see what God looks like, and what our lives can begin to be like. The ideologies presented to you at college were far, far from the message of love and salvation that Jesus presented.

I'm so sorry. It is no wonder you ran away from it all. Really no wonder and I am glad you did because it was toxic and damaging and wrong.

I hope and pray you come to a place of peace for yourself. It sounds to me like you have something of a longing for what you had in the good sense of it. I'd always encourage you to look back at Jesus for the fulfilling of that longing - not the church, not Christians, not denominations but Jesus.

Wish I could write more but restricted on phone. Just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you and hope you can find what you need. Go easy on yourself. Those words they said over you - they are not true.

You've had some great and compassionate advice but I just want to also say that I am so sorry that those that should have loved, nurtured, and counselled you failed you so deeply. I agree that in any decent Christian place I would hope they would have advised you and supported you to have the secular help you so clearly needed.

As for can you be saved and un-saved, like most of the deep emotional and theological questions it doesn't have a neat pat answer however much anyone of a particular background likes to give one (I've heard what you have from very conservative evangelicals, and the answer looking gave mostly from URC type backgrounds). Personally, I had 'wilderness years' between university and when I came back to God, and then the church, after 7 years. I was by then a barely functioning alcoholic, suicidal, and isolated.

So my story is very different to yours. I only share my experiences in case they help. I think I knew... whilst I was out, that God was still there, but the way I was treated by my church left me angry and rejected (nothing like what you went through). I still, with the background I now have, find some deeply unpleasant, smug, and un-Christ-like responses from the church. My faith now has far less of the glib answers of my uni days - but is much deeper, as it is in a God that can face the worst things I have faced and heal me little by little from them. It's a much more experiential faith (though doctrine is important, it's not the main substance of my relationship or belief). I needed spiritually mature people who had that kind of faith around me.

Maybe you might find that in a Quaker church, or elsewhere. Your anger and rage is justified at those people, and it's fine to rage at a God you barely believe in, and keep an open heart to all things. I hope you find peace that is really soul deep somewhere.

To answer your op...yes.

Thank you, it was a real mish mash of a place in a way. They did teach predestination for example but they were also a strongly evangelical church which felt confusing! The whole thing was built on fear and power though, it was really unpleasant. They didn't like me because I asked too many questions.

Interestingly I was talking to a Christian neighbour last night who said that for two years she read the bible and that it was so alive for her etc. I just never had that experience or at least I don't now.

Interesting to read about the Catholic take on things, it sounds much nicer!

Sorry to read about your experience Little Miss, I am glad that you have found a path through it back to a faith you can manage.

I would like that one day, religion does feel a very frightening thing to me at the moment. Destructive and sexist and homophobic amongst other things. I like what you say about your faith being more experiential now, that makes a lot of sense.

I sometimes liken those intense experiences of faith to a roller coasteresq relationship. I suppose it's the same part of the brain that's being stimulated and rewarded as it is in such religious fervour. That might be partly the pang you feel when you see the old bible crew. Like looking a pictures of a pop group you used to fantasise about. (Go West!). And in the same way you would tell someone coming out of a drama filled relationship that they needed to have balance and not rely on one person/thing I guess it's the same for a recovering evangelical? It can be a be a bit scary having to rethink your opinion on massive issues. I don't think mine are much different now though and I suspect that's the same for other ex believers. I still care about others, I still want to be a force for good, and practically, I still am. Other than only going to church for Christmas carols, weddings etc there's been no change in how I'm behaving. I'm not sinning any more/less

Religion really shouldn't be homophobic or sexist or destructive. But I know that there are churches that give that message... It makes me sad as there are many more churches that aren't, and that actually reflect what Jesus taught - that love is the most important thing.

Have you thought of trying any other churches? If you feel drawn to Quaker why not give it a try? I know only a little about Quakers, but they seem like nice people :)

You know what stops me a lot of the time is this fear that something bad will happen. I was a committed Christian, prayed every day, sang in the worship band, went to house group, evangelised, even brought people to faith myself. Then something horrible happened and my life went tits up basically. Somehow faith has been linked with punishment in my head.

The whole God doesn't give you more than you can handle message was quite strong but it was more than I could handle clearly and it destroyed my faith. I can't understand why that would happen I suppose.

That 'God doesn't give you more than you can handle' stuff is a big pile of pants. People are given more than they can handle all the time. Christians aren't immune from bad stuff, just because they're Christians. Sometimes shit just happens, and sometimes we can't do anything about it.

Two things. One is that God is with us in the bad stuff, he's there at rock bottom, he's there in the day to day drudgery and pain, he's there with us when our world falls apart. He cries with us when we cry, and he is there with us in the depths of despair. That may not be much, but it is better than crying alone, despairing alone, enduring alone.

The other is that instead of trying to fathom why all these things have happened and give justifications that either make no sense or make bad sense, maybe as Christians we should turn our attention to our own part in the bad things of the world, and in making them better. When someone is suffering, what can we do to help? What can we do to reach out to, to be with those who are in bad places? How can we change our ways so that we turn the effects of our actions to the good, rather than being implicated in the bad?