Does anyone want to talk about loss of faith?

[plotmissinginaction]

Just wondered off the back of the thread about christianity currently in AIBU if there was anyone else around who had once had faith but now doesn't.

I came to Christianity as a teenager when I was rather vulnerable and had first left my dysfunctional home (alcoholism in a parent for starters). I was very drawn to the sense of family there.

I went for it all in, was probably very annoying actually. I went to college and joined a church there. Then I got caught up in an abusive relationship and of course the church were the first people I turned to for help. They were toxic! Turned on me, said all the same things that he was saying and worse. Still I dropped out of college (to escape this guy) and went to bible school (by the skin of my teeth as I was told the wouldn't want some one 'like me' there.

Bible school was a new kind of hell. Very extreme. I was by this stage suffering from PTSD but told I must not see a Dr and that it was demonic activity that was a result of my own lack of faith. Once something was prayed for it was meant to be healed and if it wasn't then you didn't have enough faith. I had Christian counselling (from totally unqualified people) but was suffering nightmares, panic attacks, depression, flashbacks. I also so witnessed some very unpleasant treatment of other people that still disturbs me. A girl who was sexually abused as a child being made fun of in front of thousands of people in a prayer session, a gay friend being given his one prayer and abandoned then ending up in a psychiatric ward after throwing himself out of a car for being so sure he was going to hell. After a year I left the church and immediately felt better, saw a Dr, got anti depressants and a therapist and began the process of picking my life back up.

But it was a very sad, sad thing. I had really believed (although Christians now tell me that I can't have really believed or I wouldn't have lost my faith) and it was a great loss. Now having been back to uni and studied feminism Christianity just doesn't fit with my world view anymore but I still feel a bit of jealousy when I see my old bible school friends with their faith in tact.

sunshinemum

So sorry for your experience OP. It's not surprising that you feel the way you do.

I suffered spiritual abuse in the church too OP (up till the age of 17). Because I had my own ideas on how things worked I was labelled 'evil' (from about 4 years up) and outcasted at home and in the congregation (very subtly). My best friend during my teens was a lovely man (but came to the church after re-forming from heroine abuse) they never accepted him. My parents got divorced and everyone had something negative to say about it. Another friend had a father who changed gender - and he was subtly ousted till he could only meet his children at the gate after the services had ended. Others had illnesses that required some form of medical attention (as suggested in your post) and where advised to pray instead of taking a combined approach. I could go on....

I think there are two types of religion. One (privately) that you have directly with your god/higher being and the type of organised religion that man creates. Unfortunately; the latter is often open to superficial rules and co-ersive practices that maintain a status quo within the population, but may not be based in loving/accepting practice. I too have found people judgemental about my choices and non-supportive when things have gone wrong.

In any other circumstance we would walk away from people that treat us this way. It's a real shame when the very place we should feel secure is the worst place for us. I'm sorry people have let you down so badly; you deserve so much more. Well done for being determined to find a new path for yourself. Surviving spiritual stuff is just as difficult as surviving other forms of neglect and emotional abuse - it can be a long road. What did you learn from your experience that could help others?

So sorry to hear that sunshine - sounds like it was an awful time for you :( I am a new winer but have not come across this type of thing there; however it does seem that it can happen anywhere - people get it wrong all the time and hurt others through it :( so pleased you had someone with wisdom and sensitivity come alongside you and dh.

I don't feel that God was there and I suppose that is in part what it boils down to. At the point when I needed him most I felt abandoned by my church and my god.

I have learned a great deal of compassion through it though, I understand that things are rarely straight forward.

I went to soul survivor a couple of times and found it full of hysteria and manipulation. I recognise your description of people thinking that you are the one with the problem just because you feel uncomfortable with it. I am glad you have your husband with you to work through it.

I have had a lot of young girls talk to me about issue in their lives over the years and I suppose that is a good thing to have come out of it.

Goodness yes, so would I. I'd go so far as to say that churches saying that kind of stuff are not on any way reflecting the love and care of God and are toxic. :( so sad - have heard about a few of these places lately and they make me so angry.

Re nw/soul survivor etc - yes I think they don't suit everyone and that's how it should be - some would get far more out of Taize for eg. I do think people go too far at times and there can bee elements if hysteria etc but there can also be exuberant worship that suits some personalities and looks to others like manipulation. If there is any hint of hype and crap pastoral care then I want nothing to do with it.

Plot - so many Christians have felt this way through the ages. Centuries back it was described as the dark night of the soul - where hod seems absent. The psalmist described such a thing as well as feeling forsaken by God. I've had times where I nearly lost faith in these kind of times and its a dark place to be. You have support here and no do hope you find some peace soon.

That is unspeakably awful sunshine :(

Was it a nw event too?

I think nowadays the pastoral care team is trained very rigorously and not expected to enter into situations which could make things difficult for vulnerable people etc. They have a strong vetting process. Unfortunately tho there are always people who slip through the net. Anyone worth their salt would be offering support of the type which encourages people to seek professional counselling and go to their GP if they need it.

I myself have had an unfortunate encounter I the last few days with someone who was a volunteer in a hospital but was very toxic to me, a sick patient. Not going into details but just to say no have come across this sort of thing. People ads people and damage others. It's sickening sometimes. But there is so, so much good out there to and we need to balance that.

Hope you are ok.

:) so glad you're doing ok.

Can't believe you got the door slammed on you sunshine mum!

I've been to both New Wine and Soul Survivor in the past, found SS very hype-y and not to my taste, loved the worship in NW in the second tent, but can't remember any of the teaching.

I have to be honest, I am super wary of counsellors and prayer ministry teams at big events, I fully believe they all mean well, but I honestly would rather only get prayer from people who I know and trust, there are just too many flakey people out there who will say something meaning well but be totally unhelpful. I've also come across some very judgemental people in the past. I've just learnt to have thicker skin!! I think the main thing when seeking advice is to use discernment, listen to the Holy Spirit and check if what they say rings true. We are all works in progress, and even people who've been Christians for years can get it wrong!

Plot - I understand where you're coming from with the fear thing, I've had to really battle against fear and I'm still a work in progress! I hope you don't let that turn you off faith, as it's a daily walk with God to learn to trust him and not be afraid.

I think that's very wise actually, coolcat. I've been on prayer ministry teams myself and the training has been good - esp from NW - but the fact remains that some damaging stuff happens. I really avoid going for healing prayer as I've been told some fairly damaging stuff before, not St NW but other things and I'd prefer prayer form those who know me. Also have sometimes found that people centre in on the fact I have a chronic disease and appear to forget I am there and asking for prayer for something unrelated! ! This could get me going.... however as you say we're all human and a lot of people experience huge having in their lives from these types of events - I have done in other areas - so I think it's hugely important that proper training happens. At nw training it is always reinforced we are not there to counsel and not there to tell them how to do things and certainly not there to judge or to make a statement about their problem. Only there to offer prayer and listen within a short frame of time and mainly to help people respond to some teaching etc. It's those who try to be counsellors etc that can do damage in these situations :(

Sounds like the NW training is pretty solid, that's really good. My parents used to go to a church with strong NW links, and I have to say I trusted most the people there. Who were on the prayer team. Like you said I think it's people who think that they are counsellors that can cause a lot of pain! I've know some great Christian counsellors, but they had decades of training and experience, and usually did it as part of their job. Otherwise on the whole I'm all for secular counselling, though there are some oddballs in the secular world... I had a NHS psychotherapist once who sat in silence and stared at me for a full hour when I was a very emotionally disturbed and suicidal 16 year old. She didn't help one bit, and put me off going for any help until my parents paid for a private one who I loved! People aren't perfect whether Christian or not!

Your stories are very disturbing sunshinemum. I think all the 'gifts of the spirit' are open to terrible abuse. In one of the churches I was in, which was very big, they liked to get people up on the stage to perform miracles with them. A lot of it was pretty horrible to watch.

Personally I experienced quite a lot of gossip about me. People who I had opened up to for support taking it upon themselves to ring round and warn other members of the congregation about me which meant everyone had all these stories about what happened but not my version of events.

The thing that was disturbing was they said a lot of the same things as the man I was in an abusive relationship with. That what happened was my fault, I was making choices, I was doing it etc. It became easier to talk to him about it actually so I ended up going back to him more times than I think I would have if I had had some help and support. I still shudder when I remember the woman who called me up to tell me that my behaviour was real wickedness and that I was crucifying Christ all over again.

plot :(

I feel so very sad, reading these stories. Yet not surprised. As I said, I came across a person like this recently. However well intentioned she was toxic and just wrong. I guess churches are like anywhere else - full of messed up people who mess up. I certainly do!! What you experienced was so very wrong and so very un-Christlike. I am so sorry. Those words that were said we're untrue.

sunshine that sounds very off as well. As far as I know about these things the best practise is always to involve parents in this kind of thing. Obv I don't know the circumstances but it sounds like it was not done well. :(

These are sad indictments of what some people in churches can be like. But there are wonderful examples too and we need to look at them. It seems to me that it is the conservative type churches where these things seem to happen most. I've never been a member of one so find it hard to get my head round but completely understand when people say they've left faith because of experiences like yours. :( God still stands with you though when humans let you down.

I am sorry about the experiences that you had Plot and Sunshine. I had a brush with a similar sounding church some years ago that left me almost literally running for the hills (I like hill walking but am not fit enough to run!). After a while I found a very different church There are a lot of good churches out there, and sometimes what suits one person will not suit someone else.

my faith is all but gone.

id like to know why God just sits there and allows things to happen- in our lives and , for example, the kidnapped schoolgirls.

the anguish of the parents, the fear and terror those poor little girls must be going through, not to mention the thought that they may be rpaed etc.

so, God, where are you?

I haven't 'felt' you in our lives, have you had enough and given up?

And that's the difference between you and god make. If you could have prevented the kidnapping you would have. And if anyone says 'god's hands are tied' then he's not a god and certainly not a being to be in awe of.

Yes I don't get that either because I would stop it in a heart beat so why doesn't God?

I can completely understand why people lose faith when it comes to the problem of pain. It is the single most difficult thing to reconcile with a God of love and power. How can God let these things happen?

There are no definitive answers. I know that, and I live in the mystery of it. Not always happily, sometimes rather rebelliously, and sometimes in a kind of acceptance, but always in full knowledge that God is indeed a God of love, and furthermore is a God of justice.

No definitive answers but there have been some good books and studies wrestling with the subject. I would suggest The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis and Where is God when it hurts by Philip Yancey. Neither attempt to cover the problem with glib and unsatisfactory answers, neither try to blame suffering on the sufferer, and neither claim to have it all sorted. They both give a dignity to those struggling with both personal suffering and trying to understand why God lets it happen.

I think, hih that your statement 'If you could have prevented the kidnapping you would have' also applies to God. Of course, you could say that I am giving the usual 'God's hands are tied' answer and therefore assigning to God less than full omnipotence, let alone the other omnis - but it does remain that people did this. Evil people kidnapped these girls, and their parents could not stop it, because the people decided to do it, and did it. God did not intervene - could a parent make a child not do something bad if that child decided to do it?

I am aware this is not enough - I'm not daft. But what I do know, and have found time after time, is that God is in it. In the suffering, walking with us, crying with us as a parent would cry with a hurt child. This is my experience. And sometimes that experience has involved times where it didn't feel like that - it felt completely empty, like God had disappeared, and what on earth was I thinking, believing in something that simply wasn't there? I have been there. But always, every time, God has brought me back. Not gone away, but was there anyway, and it was when I kept standing in faith that I found God again. It was bitterly, bitterly hard at times, and yes, I do wonder what God is up to. But then there are other times when God is so very gloriously there, and everything feels in kilter again, and all the dark places within me seem to be lighter, and I feel set free again.

I'm so sorry you are having such a tough time MakeMine

I don't buy that at all madhair- far too easy a cop out.

"God's hands are tied" Part of a greater plan", "One of god's mysteries".

It's all suffering plain and simple. If god the omnipotent existed he would not allow these things to happen.
God has already shown himself to be venegful, jealous, quick to temper, genocidal, happy to kill babies.

Not a character I would want to sit at my dinner table, never mind worship.