genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

Does god have free will? Will we have free will in heaven?

Our local baptist church had a petition against marriage up in the foyer 2/3 years ago.

BigDorrit that is what I was pointing out, not every member of the church is against equal marriage. The Catholic Church and C of E are not the only churches either. I mean what I said, not every member of the church, as in not all, but some.

It is a choice whether to believe on Christ, I am not telling you how to live your life. I asked you questions and told you about my beliefs.

Christians look to Christ in terms of how to live their lives, there is a message of Grace. As a Christian, I believe that, it is belief in Christ that changes a person, not a set of rules which they adhere to as best they can, outside of belief in Christ. I believe I cannot judge another person, from my own human perspective, which is a Biblical belief. So I am not attempting to tell you how to live your life Dorrit, however if you asked me about something I might be able to advise.

But capsium there are seats in the House of Lords that only members of the clergy can park their arses on. By that token a certain percentage will be guaranteed to be Christian. These people are making big decisions that affect all of us. I don't think that's fair. I don't think it's fair that some people are only there because they believe in god. I don't think that's a fair way to decide if you have specialist knowledge to offer the county.

head to determine whether the seats in the House of Lords is fair or unfair you would have to determine how representative the clergy are of the UK population's beliefs and interests.

Also you are talking about The House of Lords, how representative are people who hold titles?

head you would not exclude because of Christian beliefs, would you?

That's ridiculous capsium, you have spectacularly missed the point. They are there because they are Christian. That's not right. Neither should people be there because they are atheist. They should be there based on specialist knowledge that they can draw on when law making.

BackOnlyBriefly Fri 04-Apr-14 23:05:50
Contemplates I think you're making the free will/satan thing too complicated and avoiding the point.??
I don’t want to make things complicated because I think the whole thing is relatively simple. Perhaps too simple? But I am not avoiding any points, so if you think that please feel free to present any question back to me again and I will do my best to get what I’m being asked.

Most Christians seem to justify suffering by saying that we do it to ourselves. That god would like to prevent it all, but to do that he'd have to make us into robots and we'd lose free will.??That argument is internally consistent up to a point.
To some degree we do cause suffering ourselves. I know if I had made different choices, with more wisdom and probably less selfishness, I would have spared myself and other people from a certain amount of suffering. I also know that some of my biggest knocks have been at the hand of other people. Take sexual abuse for example. That’s one person causing suffering to another. And on a much larger scale, an awful lot of human suffering is at the hand of another human. Take Hitler for example.
Did God have the power to stop the adult abusing the child? Yes. Did God have the power to stop Hitler from abusing and torturing so many fellow-humans? Yes. But it just doesn’t work like that because God has made us with this thing called a “will” and part of that privilege is to chose either FOR God or AGAINST Him. The child molester chooses against God. Hitler chose against God. When I lost my cool and swore at my husband I chose against God. Adam and Eve chose against God. And of course, satan chooses against God.

But then when I ask about Satan I'm told that he applies pressure to make people do evil. Now that isn't internally consistent because god could just as easily not have created Satan.
You will know from your bible reading that Satan was created perfect just like Adam and Eve, with a free will just like Adam and Eve. In fact, satan had a very high place in Heaven before he decided to get greedy and turned.

He wouldn't need to take away our free will for that. ??So since it no longer makes sense I asked and am still asking "what's the point of Satan".?
Satan was first a perfect Angel with a free will. He chose God at first, but then wanted to be above God and so chose against Him. You know the rest of that story! To some degree, satan is just like you and me, in that he has freedom to choose. The difference is that we are humans and he an angel (now fallen).

?On the the other subject of you dismissing the beliefs of millions of Christians I agree that they are wrong too of course. However I am not claiming that god puts faith and knowledge into people and presumably you are.?
Please don’t presume that, especially as I took the time to say in my last post that many people make up their own religious beliefs without actually being aware of what the bible says. Most really don’t actually read it. When you are next in a church service, say for example at a wedding or funeral, or Christmas play, or whatever, just notice how little of the bible is read and explored. It is often either read vaguely with no interpretation given, or not read at all!

?If you don't believe that knowledge is inserted into your head by god then how else do you know what to believe.
The bible has all the information a person needs, but with that comes a responsibility to bother to read what’s there. And study it. None of this vagueness nonsense!

The bible on its own proves nothing. You have to have an outside force telling you which bits to take literally and which are just stories.??
No, the bible is quite clear about what is what, if you take the time and effort to keep in mind the context and really unpick it.

Christians frequently say "Oh I read the bible and then I pray to god for understanding" (or the other way around). They know it's true (they say) because god inserts the sureness.??
Well it is true that the bible says “seek and you shall find”. But the way God reveals iself is through His word to us and not through some mystical pointing to random words in the dictionary for guidance!

But those other Christians (and indeed Muslims/Hindus etc) also have this sureness.
Did you know that the muslim faith is based on the biblical origins, but adapted to their own specific religion? And that Hinduism came long after the bible too? If they had just studied out and grasped the context of the original text, without adding or taking away from it (as we're warned against at the end of the bible), then they wouldn't have made up their own religions instead.

If you say the sureness is an illusion/mistake for them you can't really say "but when it happens to me it's genuine".
I also dislike it when people say “God led them here or there”, its very subjective to my mind and I think unsafe to place your belief system on. It’s too much like astrology and can be interpreted in whatever way you please. However, as I keep saying, the bible is rich with God’s information to us, and everything we need to know in this life, with our human understanding, is in there. But it is hard work and effort to research it and get the context accurately. And that’s probably one of the reasons most people don’t bother.

head I'd not missed that point, what I said does not negate it. I was questioning how representative The House of Lords is.

Beliefs do affect policy making, like it or not. I questioned how representative the The House of Lords is of UK beliefs and interests, and how you could determine this.

Added to this, people with 'specialist knowledge' can be equally biased, do not forget some of the fiascos that took place in our courts, concerning 'expert' witnesses...

So you wouldn't have a problem if they announced that there would now be 10 seats that only Scientologists can sit it (and it would be more that the clergy had) What makes it wrong is that you need to have a belief in a specific god to be in that seat. You can't sit in it if you don't believe in that god. But you can also sit in any other seat. Whereas an atheist can't sit in those special seats. So you have a very unfair advantage.

I have no doubt that policy makers draw on their beliefs and experiences which is why it should be fair access and not have specific seats for a certain religion.

BigDorrit Sat 05-Apr-14 12:44:08
When the child molester is a priest???
The one I am thinking of wasn’t. But of course some are. Not all, but some.

Hitler was staunchly Catholic, and claimed everything he did was based on Catholic teaching. (You did know that the Catholic church still taught persecution of the Jews until 1964 didn't you?)
This is typical of people claiming to do something in God’s name, but actually fulfilling their own agenda and going directly against all that God requires of His people.

And that's how we know that the god ordained genocide/rape in the OT is a metaphor. Because when bad stuff happens it's from satan and good fluffy things are from god

We need chapter and verse, headinhands!

Verses for what?

head I never argued against fair access...just questioned whether the House of Lords is concerned with fair access in the first place.

And that's the whole point Capsium. That it isn't fair because it discriminates on faith and as a state machine it shouldn't.

Does god have free will? Will we have free will in heaven?

Yes of course God has free will!
God is God. Not sure you are getting the enormity of Him and His powers!

Second question is harder for me to answer. I am thinking not. But I could be wrong. If we are in Heaven, we dont have sin any longer?? So free will is no longer relevant???

Lesley. I tried another one but it was very dull and full of old people

That is a problem in some areas.
At least, I personally see it as a problem. One I too am currently grappling with.

I am ok with it, but it must be off putting for a great number of people.

I dont know the answer.

Some churches like ours, are going from say 12 in a large geographical area, into about 4. I am grappling with whether this is a good idea or not. I am quite on the fence about it. As with everything, I suspect there will be plusses and minuses to it.

So if it's possible for us to love god, not be able to sin but that be okay with him and not make us flesh puppets then why can't he just wave his superdooper powerful wand and make it like that now. Or does he like watching helpless people suffer?