genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

Everybody has a belief system BigDorrit!

....if you think working morality out by thinking about it is not difficult, you clearly have not thought about it enough....

That is from an individual human viewpoint it is difficult to judge another person, with possibly very different individual and cultural experiences to your own.

Our brains are plastic, our biology adapts, we pass these adaptations on to our children. We all have a set of different pre-dispositions. Psychologists are beginning to debate whether Free Will actually exists.....

I like to believe we can be Free in Christ. It gives me Hope.

niminypiminy
Contemplates, the person addressed in Ezekiel 28 is the Prince of Tyre -- it's not Satan (let alone Lucifer). I'm not sure how you get to your conclusion that it is Satan.

Ezekiel 28 is speaking of both.

A King is discussed at the beginning of the text but then it becomes a dual prophesy in very much the same way that Jesus rebuked Peter by saying “get thee behind me satan”.

He wasn’t actually saying peter was satan, but was referring to what stands behind Peter’s words (which was satan).

The King of Tyre was not in the garden of Eden and was not a perfect angel fallen from Grace.

This exposition sums it up well.

christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/2641/does-ezekiel-28-speak-of-satan-as-king-of-tyre

?
capsium
But anyone or anything can be deceived by Satan Contemplates and niminy...and Adam and Eve did go against God, so it makes sense that the adversary (Satan) tempted them. Whether the snake was used by Satan (in it's ignorance) or was Satan I don't really 'get' what the difference the distinction makes

Fair point! I only replied to that point because we are told to study the word accurately so we can give an answer to the hope that is within us.

niminypiminy
I don't understand lots of things too. But we go on ...
I also agree with this statement! No one can know it all.

BigDorrit
"I would term evil you have described as corruption within the church"??That would suggest that the entire church is corrupt.*
I agree it is, because we all are! But the bible points us in a different direction. Only many people prefer to pay it lipservice only. And that is the hypocrisy we all see. But it isn’t just specific to people who profess to be Christians, it applies to everyone. We’re all fallible beings. The difference is whether you take up the fight to be different and “follow” God.

Speaking of which, He is as aggrieved by hypocrisy as you are. More so in fact.

BreakingDad77
I agree with Bigdorritt, new and old testament vary wildly in their stances on things.
What differences do you mean?

BackOnlyBriefly
Ok catching up.??Contemplates Making the best of of a random disaster is a different thing entirely.?

Is it really? What makes a random disaster different to personal suffering. It surely affects individual lives just like catastrophic suffering such as terminal sickness?

?I'm sorry Contemplates, but that's not what Christians are telling me. I have been told even here on MN that he will make someone suffer so that a Christian gets the chance to learn from it or be inspired.??They say he created the devil and in the book of Job god encourages Satan to hurt people to prove a point and to tempt them to be evil.

Not everyone you talk to should be believed, on MN or in RL for that matter. In fact, I urge you not to believe my word either. You don’t know me from Adam (s’cuse the pun!). But I would say it would be prudent to read the book itself to find out for YOUR self, and of course take the time to read it in context. To really study it.

??When I asked "What about if he just stopped Satan from actively pushing people into doing evil?" You said:??You’re forgetting that these events happened long before you and I appeared, and will continue long after we are departed. ??Not sure what that has to do with anything.?

It is linked insofar as, to make sense of what is happening now, you need to see the big picture – what happened before and what is yet to come.

?If God stopped satan when we decided he should, our world would be perfect now??. What do you mean by that?

I mean that we would all want evil to stop immediately, I certainly would like to escape the suffering I have in my own life! I am sure everyone has always preferred the idea of heaven on earth, right as far back as the garden of Eden. But if God stopped satan he would remove the source of the problem, the sewage if you like, but the drinking water is still polluted and humanity is still imperfect. The end would not have come according to God’s calendar and He has got His reasons for choosing the end date that he has marked out.

We'd still have freedom to make mistakes. Yes we would.
Are you now claiming that even with free will we'd only act badly if the devil made us?
No, I’m saying the damage is done. But the end game hasn’t been reached yet. As the saying goes, “its not over ‘til the fat lady sings”.

BigDorrit I wouldn't like to kill either. But when people are faced with war...

The thing is Christ is for 'whosoever will' believe on Him. No matter what..

This is the point. We are indeed all fallible, Christianity recognizes this. Christians make a choice to believe on Christ and follow Him because we do not trust our own fallible nature. We question our motives and should know we cannot judge others against ourselves.

Sorry BigDorrit I don't actually know what you believe in do I? Only what you don't, which I assume is g(G)od.

What do you revere/hold dear in life Dorrit?

BigDorrit But how many of those human rights is it common place to erode within society? You only have to declare someone as being mentally unfit and their 'rights' go right out of the window, in practice...

In fact the cynic within me could say 'Human rights' have gained almost mythical status..

Where did I say the church has everything right?

I am not frantic either....

BigDorrit, are you speaking about one particular church, or all churches? It's a massive generalisation to say that 'the church seems to have more wrong than right', especially if you mean by that all churches of all kinds in all countries.

Let's be accurate in our terminology. Only Christianity has churches. Now, do you mean individual communities of worshippers in a particular place; or groupings of churches which share a common history and ideas/practices (denominations); or the church in a more general sense meaning all Christian churches? Not all churches are the same; and they may all be wrong in various ways - but some of the ways in which they are wrong will be different from the ways other churches are wrong.

A lot of people at my church (which I am seriously considering my attendance at) call everything that happens to be God's will. I just don't get it that a lovely person with everything to live for can be killed because it's "God's will".

Also they are heavily into the power of prayer. This is trotted out to describe people who have been cured of illnesses etc but is conveniently forgotten when a seriously ill baby who was also prayed for, sadly ided.

Any thing I don't agree with in the running of the church is excused by "If the Lord leads us to do this or that, then it's correct."

I really don't think I belong here (or at any other church if this is how they all think) any more.

Oh, and I assume that by 'based on a false premise' you mean 'based on a premise I do not find convincing'. That is not the same as false.

Lesleythegiraffe -- they don't all think like that, really they don't. Try some other churches and see for yourself that they are different.

"to be honest it applies to all of them": since you mention evidence, where is your evidence for this statement?

"based on a premise that nobody has ever seen the slightest hint of evidence supporting": not nobody, in fact millions of people over a couple of millenia.