genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

on the basis of known similarity known being the operative word there. And no one can know god protects because we have no evidence of him protecting anything let alone existing.

So it's a false analogy. You're taking a thing that exists and comparing it to something that doesn't. It's like me saying 'the pink and red magic unicorn in my shed is like a teacher because it wants to teach you things'. It's non-sensical.

head I'm talking about how belief and value systems affect people at a very deep level. Beliefs exist. Values exist. Atheists are not immune to holding beliefs and values. A belief and value system can be constructed around whatever is revered, so whatever is revered becomes a constructed 'god'.

headinhands
Think of it like this: if I told you that there was a being that was all love and he cared for us all but that that same being watched defenceless children being murdered you would point that contradiction out to me wouldn't you.

I can’t claim to know God’s mind, He’s much bigger than me, and it would be like trying to tell a brain surgeon how to do his job. I just don’t have that knowledge.

But it is plausible that God can turn “everything around for good”. Change sorrow into happiness, or pain into courage. Of course, at the time, I like anyone else, can’t always see what earthly good can come out of some of my suffering, and I am sorry to say I am the first to shake my fist at God because I don’t like the suffering on my plate. Yet when I look back, I can’t deny my character has also been shaped by certain events and maybe my current and future suffering could have the same outcome?

Consider how that sacrificial love, placing someone else’s need above your own, or suffering along side someone in compassion and empathy, would never occur in a perfect life. There would be no need for it.

God doesn’t want people to suffer, but it is quite reasonable to believe what the bible says, in that God wants good to come from the suffering that we experience in this fallen world. Remember that it wasn’t always like that. It has only been a fallen world since the Garden of Eden.

I understand your frustration with God not intervening and ending all suffering with immediate effect. You use the argument of suffering as though it is a reason to support your unbelief. But if God DID reduce the suffering and evil in the world, how much evil would you be satisfied with accepting in an imperfect world?
You see, the problem we have is that if God stopped all evil, then we would be nothing more than programmed robots; puppets on a string. But He saw fit to give us all freedom to choose.

head so who can say, with any degree of certainty, one human construct is superior to the other? Surely the constructs vary and make sense according to individual experience, cultural experience and biology? Which are vastly diverse amongst human kind...

Of course, from a Biblical perspective I can say, there is one true God. However an atheist cannot claim this, by definition....

headinhands
on the basis of known similarity known being the operative word there
I had quoted that an analogy is a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects
so... not ALL respects. I am not saying God is a policeman, but I inferred a policeman is similar in the respect of potentially getting into trouble with him, but also him representing positive attributes if you keep your nose clean!

And no one can know god protects because we have no evidence of him protecting anything let alone existing.

It's a bit like the film 'Sliding Doors'. You follow a path that you know, and you never know what near-misses you've have had, if events had turned out differently!

Wait a minute. You say it's a fallen world as in it's not supposed to be like this and I assume you reckon if it hadn't fallen it would have been pretty fab and you wouldn't have seen us all as mindless robots then I assume?

never know what near-misses you've had

Was he on the toilet during the holocaust? Napping in front of the TV during the Philippine hurricane?

But you have no evidence for god being good or upstanding to make an analogy with have you?

head so do you have an answer to my question, posted earlier?

....so who can say, with any degree of certainty, one human construct is superior to the other? Surely the constructs vary and make sense according to individual experience, cultural experience and biology? Which are vastly diverse amongst human kind...

Of course, from a Biblical perspective I can say, there is one true God. However an atheist cannot claim this, by definition....

So caps you're saying we can't know, but that you're somehow outside of it all? And that you do know?

head you tell me. You've read the Bible...

headinhands
Wait a minute. You say it's a fallen world as in it's not supposed to be like this and I assume you reckon if it hadn't fallen it would have been pretty fab and you wouldn't have seen us all as mindless robots then I assume?

No of course not. But freedom to choose was available before the fall, just as it is afterwards. Only once the world was made imperfect through mankinds choices, the cat was out the bag, so to speak.

We had choice then, we have choice now.

headinhands
*never know what near-misses you've had

Was he on the toilet during the holocaust? Napping in front of the TV during the Philippine hurricane?*

I'm not sure I follow? If you misread my comment, let me clarify. I meant that WE don't know what the other path would have been, not God.

headinhands
never know what near-misses you've had

Was he on the toilet during the holocaust? Napping in front of the TV during the Philippine hurricane?

I'm not sure I follow? If you misread my comment, let me clarify. I meant that WE don't know what the other path would have been, not God.

Oops sorry, not accustomed the this machine!

So the holocaust was a near miss for what? The toddler who died of cancer missed what disaster?

I'm talking on a personal level - your life and mine.

Can you re frame your question please as I'm not understanding how you're interpreting my words.

headinhands
So the holocaust was a near miss for what? The toddler who died of cancer missed what disaster?

The holocaust was not a near miss, it happened. A toddler dying of anything, cancer or otherwise, is not a near miss. I would be devastated if I experienced any of these tragedies and would not consider them as near misses.

But in an imperfect world, where evil and disease now exist, people harming each other and death and disease are sadly a very real part part of our existence and sadly a very real part of my own life.

If you purify water you can drink it. But if how much sewage contamination makes the water ruined? Half the glass? One drop?

God created the water we can drink, but we, through our poor choices, contaminate it again. Us, not God.

The bible says that God has compassion and weeps with us. We are told He is touched by our suffering and offers His comfort. Even if death there is hope. Hope for peace. Hope for release of suffering. Hope for eternity.

So contemplates you feel that god has kept you alive so far. And that there may be times when he acted to prevent harm coming to you? Whereas he hasn't acted to protect other people at other times. Why?

headinhands - So contemplates you feel that god has kept you alive so far. And that there may be times when he acted to prevent harm coming to you?
I gave the analogy of ‘Sliding Doors’ because the point was she didn’t know what her life would have been like if she had not chosen certain steps. We were shown the details of both lives in the film, but she was oblivious. My parallel to this was to say we don’t know about the “what if’s” and “near misses”, but just because we don’t have that knowledge doesn’t mean a different choice couldn’t land you in an entirely different lifestyle.

So the truth is I don’t know what my near misses could be, no one can possibly see the potential future like that. But one thing I am sure of is that the bible tells us there are many accounts where God set his angels to guard people (Exodus 23:10, Psalm 91:11, Like 4:10 and Acts 12:10), and is watching us intently (Psalm 139:18) “How precious to me are your thoughts, God!?How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them,?they would outnumber the grains of sand –? when I awake, I am still with you”. It also says in Matthew 10:29-31: “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows”.

Ask yourself this. If people suffering and dying unfairly makes me believe God isn’t real, what would it take to make me believe God is real? Would it take for all people to die in a ‘fair’ way? But don’t forget, we all have different opinions and so what would be fair to you may not be considered fair to someone else. Would you only be satisfied if we all died at the same age and only peacefully, at night, and in our sleep? Or would even that not be enough?

It is easy to assume everyone should live a long (how long is long?) and prosperous life (this too is subjective). But the Bible makes no such guarantees. Jesus said quite openly “in this world you will have trouble”. (John 16:33).

The Bible says that our times are in His hands. It also tells us that “there is a time to be born, and a time to die” (Ecclesiastes 3:2) and Psalm 139:16 says “all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” We don’t really get any say regarding the date of our birth or death.

You could argue that suicide gives you choice, but not always; even attempts at suicide don’t always work! I should know, I’ve looked after so many people who should have lived but died unexpectedly, and people who escape minor injuries like a broken leg, after jumping off a multi-story car park to try and end it all.

You also ask: Whereas he hasn't acted to protect other people at other times. Why? Where did I say this?

I always feel a little sickened when people speak of good coming from suffering. This is an example of things people have said to me though usually people are not keen on spelling it out.

'I used to be quite selfish but it made me think of others when I saw this small child die in agony. So god did a good thing there killing that child slowly and painfully didn't he'

I think that good coming from suffering caused by god is reason enough on its own to despise religion.

if God stopped all evil, then we would be nothing more than programmed robots; puppets on a string. But He saw fit to give us all freedom to choose.

What about if he just stopped Satan from actively pushing people into doing evil? You might risk a child falling off a bike in order for them to learn to ride, but would you really pay some guy to run alongside shoving them off and say that was an essential part of free will?

Christians get benefits. And also make sacrifices.

The list of things I have not done that I might have liked the "freedom" to do, is as long as my arm.
I try not to dwell on them, as I know that I have so made the better choice.

I also know that I may endure suffering for the choices I have made. In short, you give up your life. Non christians wouldnt dream of doing that.

Give us an example 126sticks.