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Philosophy/religion

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genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

999 replies

kentishgirl · 21/03/2014 11:26

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

OP posts:
headinhands · 01/04/2014 12:51

I would warn people if I knew from experience, logic or knowledge that what they were doing was likely to sustain injury/death. Like if my dc runs with scissors I warn them about how dangerous it is because I know sharp things cut, I know people can die from blood loss and I know it hurts. No one has seen someone go to hell. No one had seen any such thing happen.

headinhands · 01/04/2014 12:56

I might as well start warning you that there is a supernatural murderer in your attic whose going to kill you if you don't say nice things to him in your head every day. I've got absolutely no evidence or proof whatsoever that he exists but I think he does so that's okey right? You want me to believe? You had better bring some goods to the table or your claim gets filed with all the other ones.

headinhands · 01/04/2014 12:57

Do you feel superior to Allah? No, because you don't think he exists. And that's how I feel. Is it really that difficult to comprehend?

atthestrokeoftwelve · 01/04/2014 14:09

Giving warnings about real possible threats is very different to scaring into submission with non -existant entities.

I was told the bogie man woud get me if i dodn't to go bed as a child.
Not a nice thing to do.

We are told that satan lurks for us and if we don't love god then we will go to hell. That's not a nice thing to do either.

headinhands · 01/04/2014 14:41

Tell them about what you think will happen by all means, I don't think anyone is saying you can't. But by the same token accept that others won't play along and will point out the abject lack of any evidence whatsoever.

capsium · 01/04/2014 15:07

atthestroke I was told some of those things too. Bogie man, Wee Willie Winkie, you name it. I also read a lot of Fairy Tales, ghost stories, was scared of the news, thought my Dad would be conscripted to fight in the Falklands and thought we would all be hit by a nuclear bomb. Fear is horrible.

Thing is fear is something my Faith enables me to overcome...Jesus overcame evil. Jesus came to Save us, not condemn us. That is what I focus on and lots of other Christians focus on, the message of Hope Christ gives.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 01/04/2014 15:11

Fear is used to control though. I have seen 7 year old terrified out of their wits by parents, school and church who have led them to believe that satan lurks around every corner.

It's abusive.

So capsium the devil is nother to fear?

capsium · 01/04/2014 15:14

atthestroke No I don't believe in being fearful, I aim to be aware of deceptions and overcome them. Christ overcame Satan with good.

capsium · 01/04/2014 15:16

I don't believe in terrifying 7 year olds either. I think anxiety can be a horrible thing.

capsium · 01/04/2014 15:19

Reverential fear (of God) is different to what is commonly described as fear. It is more likened to respect, recognising someone's power and love for you and wanting to respond in kind.

Contemplates · 01/04/2014 15:22

Teaching a child about God is no different than teaching them to have a healthy respect for the law.

You can either see the policeman as being there to protect and help you, or as someone with a big stick that tells people off and an authority to be afraid of.

Personally I teach my child that it's up to us to be on the right side of the law so there are no consequences to fear when we see a police car!

The only difference is that our 'works' don't save us spiritually, but His Grace towards us does (should we accept it).

Contemplates · 01/04/2014 15:24

I also teach them that "perfect love casts out fear".

The only dark force that promotes unhealthy fear is from satan.

In fact now that you mention it, satan is also called the destroyer. Says it all Wink

Contemplates · 01/04/2014 20:00

OP - I realise I have read the end of your thread and answered that, instead of actually answering your original question! So I've come back to do just that.

You say: Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself.

It may come across like that but it in't actually how it is supposed to be at all. Being a Christian makes you more accountable than if you're not a believer, as the bible says that the more you know, the more is expected of you and less excuse you have.

So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing. A conscience pricked by God is a very uncomfortable conscience indeed! The feelings of guilt are so healthy because they stop you being comfortable with your wrong-doing. Why else would we bother to stop ourselves? The trouble comes when people 'harden their hearts' and ignore the feelings of their consience, and do what they want anyway.

I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out
I'm really sorry you've experienced this. I also have been wronged by people who claimed to be "serious committed christians" as you put it. Interestingly. the more I have looked away from their lives and the more I have looked at the bible, I have seen clearly how wrong they actually were. No wonder they were comfortable with their blissful ignorance! They were completely wrong and didn't have any conscience about it. Perhaps they are not actually true Christians, or perhaps the deep regret is yet to come (when they are bitten by how terribly wrong they were). Perhaps we will never know. But the bible is always warning about "wolves in sheep's clothing" and I suggest that it's because it's more common than you think.

Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? In the nicest possible way, yes, but only because you are measuring true Christianity against some people who aren't demonstrating real christian values in their lives. Think of it this way... I am from a medical background and have recently had some of my colleagues whistle-blow on someone who endangered lives in their practice. If you were the family of these patients, you could understandably say that all hospital staff are incompetent. But we all know if they are professional and do their jobs correctly then they are absolutely competent and we are very grateful for access to them!

Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.
God doesn't teach that. Have you ever read Hebrews, for example? In there, we are shown how that God disciplines those who are His, like a parent must train a child. We don't allow our kids to get away with murder so to speak, and God is just the same.

There are two different types of forgiveness from God. One is where you admit to having done wrong and turn away from it (also known as repentance), and admit to the fact that you can't earn or buy your forgiveness for wrongdoing. It is a free gift from God because He paid the ultimate penalty for everyone's wrongdoing. That's why John 3 v 16 says "whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM" is forgiven. Not "whosoever was baby baptised, or whosoever goes to church, or whosoever is nice to the homeless. No, it;s talking about whosoever TRUSTS IN and RELIES UPON Him rather than their own "works".

And then there is the forgiveness that comes with consequences. This is not about the consequence of sin making us spending eternity away from God, it's about the consequence of discipline that God uses towards those He loves. His "Son's" so to speak. (And daughters obviously!).

And it's these consequences that mean no one gets away with A. Single. Thing. Even if it appears as though they have, you haven't seen their future yet.

BigDorrit · 02/04/2014 00:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

headinhands · 02/04/2014 06:44

Seeing the police to help and protect you.

Firstly no one has ever seen any god let alone your god or seeing him protecting anything so it's a false analogy because policemen definitely exist. Secondly there is absolutely not even a shred of a shred of evidence that there is any supernatural force protecting or helping Christians.

headinhands · 02/04/2014 07:11

Recognising someone's power and love for you

Sorry, not sure I understand what someone's ability to hurt stuff has to do with love. My husband is stronger than me but it has nothing to do with my loving him. How is he able to love me seeing how relatively weak I am?

capsium · 02/04/2014 07:49

BigDorrit

"Reverential fear (of God) is different to what is commonly described as fear."

If only that was what was taught, but you know as well as I do that that is not the case when it comes to your church, or, indeed, any church

That is what I have being taught. It is also what I believe. I am a Christian and part of the church (meaning Christ's followers not a particular building)

headinhands I disagree. We have had similar conversations before. I do not require evidence but have experienced God in my life. God in Christ died to save us, He loves us. But again, we have discussed this before.

Anyway how can you argue over the character of a being you do not believe exists? If you indeed believe god is a human construct, then of course he could be anything a person would want him to be...by defining his character you are believing him to be a particular way, are you not? And the god you believe in is not particularly nice? What does that say about what you believe concerning humanity?

Contemplates · 02/04/2014 09:49

BigDorrit Wed 02-Apr-14 00:18:06

"A conscience pricked by God is a very uncomfortable conscience indeed!" What about an atheists conscience?

I am not disputing the OP's disclosure that her conscience is uncomfortable. Rather I am supporting the idea that, like her own conscience, a conscience made uncomfortable in the light of what God expects from his people, is ALSO a very uncomfortable feeling.

We don't need some mythical sky fairy to tell us what is right, we know it instinctively, learnt from experience. Like you know that slavery is wrong, even though it is supported by your book of fairy tales.

Of course I would expect you to say you learn from experience, to some degree we are (hopefully) all "taught" what is right and wrong from an early age. But the bible also speaks of a level of awareness that comes from God too. Perhaps on a subconscious level. But I wouldn't expect you to agree to that because you believe there is nothing (no one) to believe in, and I'm not trying to get you to change your mind about that, just putting an alternative viewpoint out there Smile

"Have you ever read Hebrews, for example?" I've read a lot of the bible - it's one of the reasons I'm an atheist - so I really don't recommend cherry picking the only bits that support your personal interpretation. It's not cherry picking, it's pointing someone in the direction of finding specifics about a certain topic. If you wanted to research chemotherapy, I would point you to a medical journal and not the Lakeland catalogue.

"Being a Christian makes you more accountable than if you're not a believer" - bullsh!t to make theists feel superior to others. You completely misunderstand this. Perhaps I should have made that clearer. Being a Christian you more accountable...TO GOD - in relation to how you live your life.... more than if you're not a believer. The greater the knowledge the greater the expectation, type thing. This brings about a greater responsibility, not superiority. It's completely unrelated, but if you insist on drawing parallels, then I'd point out that being a believer in God and having increased responsibility (because of having more knowledge about God's requirements of his people) actually makes a person have to work harder and take it more seriously. God is, you might say, stricter with his own family. A bit like each of us disciplining our own children but not being responsible in the same way for how other peoples kid's live.

Contemplates · 02/04/2014 10:14

headinhands Wed 02-Apr-14 06:44:36
Seeing the police to help and protect you.

Firstly no one has ever seen any god let alone your god or seeing him protecting anything so it's a false analogy because policemen definitely exist.

Analogy is defined in the dictionary as meaning: Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

This doesn't seem like a false analogy to me, the 'similarity between things' being help and protection.

And I used that analogy because my 3 year old mentioned that we had "better not get into trouble with that policeman" when we saw one in town, and I had to explain that he was there to help us, and the only time to be worried about a policeman is if we do something wrong!

126sticks · 02/04/2014 13:57

Anyway how can you argue over the character of a being you do not believe exists?

Just what I was coming on to say.

Answer is because hih has is a tiny part of belief left. I sincerely urge you to hang on to it dearly. Do not chuck it.
How about do not chuck it out, just in case?

headinhands · 02/04/2014 18:52

I'm not arguing about his character I'm arguing about what you think his character is and pointing out contradictions. The same way that when I have debated with Muslims I have gone to task on what they think their god is like. Think of it like this: if I told you that there was a being that was all love and he cared for us all but that that same being watched defenceless children being murdered you would point that contradiction out to me wouldn't you. And would you have to believe this being existed to point that out to me? No. You're tackling my logic fail.

headinhands · 02/04/2014 18:55

just in case

Do you keep hold of a bit of belief in the other 3999 or so gods humans have believed in just in case?

126sticks · 02/04/2014 19:00

Not going to discuss your last post. Will come back to your next to last one at some point.

headinhands · 02/04/2014 19:02

That's a bit hypocritical isn't it? You ask me to keep a bit of faith just in case but won't even discuss it when I suggest it to you?

capsium · 02/04/2014 19:29

headinhands I believe God shows His character, most clearly, in Jesus. You don't need to argue with me concerning God's character, Christian belief takes Faith.

The reason I pointed out that from your, atheist, perspective god is a human construct is that from there the question of "Why argue with me concerning my own 'construct'?," is inevitable. Why be concerned with dictating somebody else's 'construct'? Is it that a positive 'constructed' god is not satisfactory but a negative 'constructed' god is?

I suspect from an atheist perspective, no construct is satisfactory. However anything that is revered, or regarded as being of utmost importance can become as a 'god' in a belief / value system... money.... power.... fame.... intellectual prowess. That is, a whole value and belief system can be built around whatever is revered. So the presence of human construct remains, as part of the nature of humanity. It follows that even atheists are not immune...

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