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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Exactly what will happen upon my demise

326 replies

DoctorTwo · 29/01/2014 18:28

You will have noticed the title is a statement not a question. What is certain to happen is you lot and all this will cease to exist.

I'm not trying to be mean, but that's just the way it is.

OP posts:
curlew · 02/02/2014 16:37

"The idea that non-believers are helplessly subjected to the awful oppression of having to watch songs of praise on prime time tv strikes me as -- well, it's like complaining about being hit by a feather, isn't it?"

If that's what non Christians were objecting to then yes, that would be a bit silly. Almost as silly as pretending that's what the debate is about......

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/02/2014 18:07

Doctor, when you were a Christian did you ever tell someone that they were going to hell?

DoctorTwo · 02/02/2014 18:23

No, I wasn't an outgoing child. I tended to hide my light under a (Garry) Bushel.

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 19:18

I used the example about Songs of Praise because it was in a post by Numptynamechange.

There are lots of theories about the reasons for the decline in church membership. Most of those who have done serious research into the growth of secularism have identified the key drivers as increased prosperity, consumerism, greater choice of leisure activities, decline in traditional beliefs generally and changing social structures, in addition to greater diffusion of atheist ideas. It's not simply a case of heroic freethinkers battling against the evil power of organised religion. And it should be noted that in any case secularism is a fairly localised phenomenon -- strongest in Northern Europe and parts of northern America.

Can you force anyone to worship? I very much doubt it. The current advice to CofE clergy taking school assemblies is to say a prayer and tell children that if they wish to join in, they should say Amen at the end. It is true that many people in the church feel it is vital to reach children with the good news of the Gospel. But an increasing number of baptisms are of adults with no previous experience of church. Personally I think worship is valuable at school because it is a time of reflection and meditation, when children's spiritual needs can be addressed. It needn't be Christian. The main problem, I think! comes when people try to deny that children have any spirituality.

As far as I can see atheists are quite keen that their values are passed on to the general population, hence the remorseless proselytising of Dawkins, Minchin and co. I don't suppose you would mind it if there were school assemblies for 'critical thinking'?

The 'church is nothing but oppression and power' myth is simply that: a myth without historical foundation. The development of libraries, universities, hospitals, human rights, classical music, high art, schools, counsellors and science, to name but a few examples, were all dependent on Christianity and Islam.

I know there are bishops in the House of Lords, because of the constitutional settlement of 1688. As it happens I think the establishment of the CofE has been at best a mixed blessing for it as an institution. But I can't get steamed up about Bishops in the House of Lords. There are 26 of them, compared to 92 Lords temporal that is, people who have hereditary right to be there because of their birth most of them are there because their ancestors bankrolled the monarch. Of the rest, some 650, many are there as a mark of favour because they have done the government of the day a good turn. At least all the bishops have all been parish priests, so they will have sat with the sick and dying, fed the hungry, and seen the harsh side of life. That's more than I think we can say for definite of the hereditary peers, no?

I was thinking of childlike qualities of innocence, imagination, wonder and creativity all of which are part of faith. I don't think of children as particularly credulous no more so than adults, though perhaps adults' credulity operates in rather different arenas.

niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 19:25

Re Scottish School Boards, Wikipedia says that School Boards were abolished in 2008, and replaced by a two-tier system of parent forums and parent councils.

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/02/2014 19:26

Why would you think that I would?

sunnyspot · 02/02/2014 19:38

I'm so ashamed of our church. It has so much control over people's lives.
We shamefully spend our time
controlling the homeless by giving them warm clothes and soup,
controlling the poor by organising weekly Food Banks,
controlling the streets by sending out street pastors to help those who have had too much to drink on a cold Friday and Saturday night,
controlling old peoples homes by sending out people to listen to their stories when they have no one else to listen,
controlling hospitals by sending visitors to the sick,
controlling the bereaved by listening to them talk about their loved one,
even, dammit, controlling Third world countries by sending money to crisis hit areas

Yes, our church has definitely got a lot to answer for and is certainly a danger to all these vulnerable people they are controlling.
Is anyone else's church responsible for such atrocities?

headinhands · 02/02/2014 19:47

I would see imagination, wonder and creativity as human traits not child traits as such. What do you mean by innocence? Innocent of what?

headinhands · 02/02/2014 19:48

More specifically how would childhood innocence be carried into adulthood without it being seen as a negative trait?

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/02/2014 19:56

Head, you are not privy to the inner workings of other minds. You do not know how or why they arrived at the faith or lack thereof, so what do you think qualifies you to deem their beliefs "childish"? Is it because you now think that you were childish in your faith?

BackOnlyBriefly · 02/02/2014 19:57

I used the wrong term they are "local authority education committees" and the current law requires three external religious nominees to be appointed to every Scottish local authority education committee.

Can you force anyone to worship? I very much doubt it Well you can force people to pretend and that's good enough if you want to convince everyone else that they are the only one who doesn't want to.

Also I suspect you'd have something to say if I required your children to worship satan. No amount of me saying "but you can't really force anyone to worship" would help there would it.

increasing number of baptisms are of adults with no previous experience of church

No previous experience of going to church perhaps, but they stood there in school while everyone else apparently prayed to god, and lived in a country where religious people had extra rights by law.

Personally I think worship is valuable at school because it is a time of reflection and meditation,

Fine, let them stand in silence and reflect instead of being required to practise someone else's religion. You might accept that but the most outspoken of your fellow religionists have made it plain where they stand.

I can't get steamed up about Bishops in the House of Lords. No of course not. And you do the usual thing of saying but there are not many and the others were not elected either.

Of course many of the other Lords will be Christian too giving the CofE a powerful influence. It's not that 26 Christians sit there, but that 26 bishops sit there in addition.

And do you know what happens when we even suggest removing them? The church screams about anti christians and immorality and hate. Because the last thing the church will stand for is any kind of democracy and equality and it won't have people free to live their lives without it interfering.

So don't anyone try and tell us we should be silent. If you want us to leave you alone then leave us in peace to enjoy our lives without interference from religion.

KayHarker1 · 02/02/2014 19:58

sunnyspot, my church does all those things, too. I was in a church that did a few of them and also did a lot of damaging and controlling things. It's not an either/or - and neither is secularism if truth be told.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 20:01

My son goes to a state non-faith school and has never attended church and he's still come out with some corkers at the table like "I prayed you would be okay and Jesus said you would" and that's something he got from the church that are allowed to come in and do assemblies every so often, or from the not entirely unbiased RE lessons by a Christian teacher, I sincerely hope it's not the latter though. Why should he receive any indoctrination? How is that fair? Compare this to a discussion I recently overheard about the plans for local primaries to roll out philosophy. One local head was concerned that several parents would be upset about their children being exposed to forthright discussion about wether god was real. "They (the parents) wouldn't like that, they wouldn't like their children to think'.

niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 20:23

Back, if you required my children to worship Satan I would:
A) tell them to think their own thoughts
B) explain that we don't believe in the satan that satanists worship -- and talk with them about what we, as a family do believe
C) Trust their good sense to discern for themselves what nonsense it is

Can you just tell me what extra rights in law people who are religious have?

Um, as far as I can tell when people suggest removing the Bishops from the House of Lords, the church makes its opposition known, as any person or institution is entitled to do in a society where there is freedom of speech. You may disagree with what it says, you may think it is screaming, you may hate it but that's your prerogative. What you can't do is stop it as neither can it stop you.

I don't know what you mean by the church not tolerating democracy or equality -- as far as I know the CofE is not demanding an end to parliamentary democracy or the freedom of speech, nor a reversal of Equalities legislation (as I have said many times, I consider that my church needs to go further and faster in complying with it). Nobody is trying to say that atheists should be silent. You are getting carried away by your own rhetoric there.

HeadinHands, do you mind your child coming into contact with political ideas that you don't agree with? I bet on the occasion you talked about you said something like 'that's a load of old nonsense, god's just a fairy tale', and that was probably the end of it. Or do you think Christians can do sinister mind control?

niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 20:26

(By the way, my children go to a state non-faith school, and they come home with all kinds of folk religion that they have picked up in the playground tales about the devil are alive and well, and I'm sure they haven't got them in the classroom as I'm a school governor and oversee the curriculum. It's a mistake to think that the main influence on our children comes from what they get in the classroom and assembly hall. What other children say in the playground carries far more weight there's research to back that up too.)

Oneglassandpuzzled · 02/02/2014 20:48

you need to catch them while they are still vulnerable. Just like grooming really.

Oh for crying out loud, it's not at all like grooming. Are you for real?

headinhands · 02/02/2014 21:18

No it's the special access the church have that irks. Keep it in the class room. Why should one religion have such access to my child? Isn't it fairer if no religions (or all religions!) get 'air time'.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 21:20

I agree that peers carry a lot of weight but that doesn't mean I shouldn't care about what they hear from the adults! You wouldn't mind if satanists were doing assemblies because, oh well, they don't listen to adults do they.

niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 21:31

You're twisting my words. Of course I care what adults say to my children. But really they are far likelier to be damaged by a teacher's shouting, sarcasm and negative comments than they are by a person in a dog collar coming into assembly once in a while. I wouldn't mind if satanists were doing assemblies for the reasons stated above and also because even satanists, goodness knows, might have something to say about children's personal, social and emotional development (and if what they said was outrageous, I've no doubt the Headteacher would deal with it). The church doesn't have to have 'special access': at the moment there's a requirement (ignored in the majority of schools, and as far as I know unenforced and unenforcable) for a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian character. It doesn't have to be led by a clergy-person. Often it is because teachers don't want to do it themselves. And lots of schools invite representatives from other religions into school -- particularly if children from that faith community are part of the school.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 22:07

Well you say our definitions will be different. You wouldn't mind a visitor present an all seeing, all knowing supernatural being as real but I do. And because Christianity is so steeped in our culture we allow adults to tell them that there is an all loving being watching them all the time and looking after us if we love him. So you see the head isn't likely to silence that because it's under the radar for most people. Wouldn't it be fairer to all of us if we keep religion out of school.

Someone further up thread said about such assemblies filling the children's spiritual need. What is spiritual need? If you don't believe in a spirit can you see how fatuous that statement is?

headinhands · 02/02/2014 22:07

A satanist assembly would be something to see!

headinhands · 02/02/2014 22:09

I bet their worship songs are a lot catchier too.

curlew · 02/02/2014 22:20

"I was thinking of childlike qualities of innocence, imagination, wonder and creativity all of which are part of faith. I don't think of children as particularly credulous no more so than adults, though perhaps adults' credulity operates in rather different arenas."

Don't care for innocence much myself- it's often used as a synonym for ignorance, which I don't care for at all!. But imagination, wonder and creativity- you're really claiming them for Christiantity??????Really?????

headinhands · 02/02/2014 22:28

Faith is childlike because there is no evidence for it. I can say that because there is no evidence for any god.

niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 22:34

Curlew: I give you JS Bach, Michaelangelo Buonarotti, William Wordsworth, Isaac Newton and all their works... (This is just for starters. Other examples of Christian lives and works filled with imagination, wonder and creativity are available.)