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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Exactly what will happen upon my demise

326 replies

DoctorTwo · 29/01/2014 18:28

You will have noticed the title is a statement not a question. What is certain to happen is you lot and all this will cease to exist.

I'm not trying to be mean, but that's just the way it is.

OP posts:
thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 02/02/2014 08:37

What I see time and time again on these sorts of threads are people who have decided that religion is dangerous or deluded or stupid and that people of religion are to be despised or ridiculed.

On this board I keep hearing that anti theist beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong. That sounds a lot like fundamentalism to me.

Basic conflict resolution starts with engaging with another's point of view. You don't have to agree with it but actually taking time and listening is the start. This board, called philosophy/religion/spirituality would be a good place for listening and sharing for people of all faiths and none. Except that people of faith are not respected by anti theists.

Which is very sad.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 02/02/2014 08:40

I don't see a lot of respect for athiest thought by people of faith. We are told that we will burn in hell- respectful?

NumptyNameChange · 02/02/2014 08:54

realistically there is no resolution between religious people and those who do not believe what they believe. there is only a respectful agreement to disagree and not take the others belief or lack of belief as a personal attack.

i would never deny the rights of religious people to believe what they believe and have spaces to congregate, worship and talk about their beliefs. i am as defensive of the rights of people who do not believe in god to discuss their views and concerns over religion and where it's relevant to explore the ways that they feel religion has damaged them or those around them.

realistically people who genuinely believe that religion is a man made construct built around control aren't going to respect it any more than they respect the belief that the earth is flat. that isn't a scorn or attack towards religious individuals - it's a fundamental part of who they are and how they see the world just as much as your faith is a part of yours.

i think it is a very good thing that the equality act covered non belief as well belief as a protected trait. those who do not believe in god have every right to express it and talk about it and if they see fit campaign against it's encroachment onto human rights or social policy where they see that happening and feel it to be detrimental.

NumptyNameChange · 02/02/2014 09:01

oh and the fact that religion has been a force for your good in your life and that you believe that there are good forms of religion and many people benefit from it does not negate the painful and sometimes abusive experiences of those that it has been force for. trying to silence them or sweep their experiences under the rug is far from loving or fair and is downright wrong. people who are abused by violence, sexual acts etc are rightly not shouted down, denied and silenced in good company - those who have been abused with the tool of religion should be offered the same compassion and recognition.

religious abuse is not something much discussed (unless it happens to be sexual abuse by a religious person for example which is a different thing).

victims and those concerned should be free to talk about it without being defensively attacked by believers who defend their beliefs over human beings. having been raised as a catholic and seeped in the teachings of the gospels i find it utterly contradictory to the teachings and example found there.

if jesus was real i can't see him talking over the experiences of a hurt person to defend the temple and accuse the gentiles of being horrible heathens out to get the poor old pharisees.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 02/02/2014 09:10

I think part of the problem lies in the fact that religion tries to control.
It is interwoven within the fabric of our society whether we believe or not.
We are a societal legacy of christianity- the patriarchial structures that exist within our political, legal, financial, academic and business worls are predominantly church made.

Non denominational schools have a legal requirement to "lead active worship". Children brought up within religious families are subject to indoctrination before they are old enough to make these decisions themselves. Many churches are evangelical, believing that speading the word is essential. Non believers are to be scorned and pitied.
Centuries of church control saw people being whipped in their homes for not attending church on a Sunday, and thousands of women being burned at the stake.
And that is just in this country.
Worldwide the situation is even worse- non believers are not tolerated at all in many countries, women are denied contraception, girls are denied education in the name of religion.
Is it surprising that some find it difficult to "respect" such regimes?

The church continues to effect and control everyone, believers and athiests alike.

If religion was a purely personal then it would be easier to respect.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 09:19

It is possible to respect a persons right to hold a belief but but not respect the actual beliefs. What you're asking people to do is to respect thoughts. I can respect your right to have your own thoughts but the notion that I should then respect any thoughts your brain might have is just silly and dangerous.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 02/02/2014 09:35

What often happens in these debates is the basic category error of person of faith = fundamentalist. There are fundamentalist Christians as well as fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist anti theists.

I get that people want to challenge fundamentalism. I do as well and that is part of what I do as part of the day job. Which I'm off to do now.

NumptyNameChange · 02/02/2014 09:36

yep. just because the cow is holy to the hindu doesn't mean i can't eat it and still respect their right not to. just because 'religion' itself is holy to the religious person and i respect their right to see it so doesn't mean i have to treat it as holy myself.

this is where we run into trouble with religion having an elevated status and freedom to abstain from laws and values of society due to some special status i think.

NumptyNameChange · 02/02/2014 09:39

and the trouble also is that it allows religious persons beliefs and values to be taken more seriously and as a special cause for special treatment whilst others with values and beliefs just as deeply held and important to them but without the label 'Religion' to sanctify them do not get the same exemptions.

curlew · 02/02/2014 09:45

I am perfectly happy for people to believe what they want to belive- so long as that does not impact on me and my day to day life. Or on the lives of others who hold different or no beliefs. Unfortunately, in this country, Christians have a a powerful influence over education, politics and social affairs. And obviously, in some other countries, an influence several orders of magnitude (to put it mildly) more powerful. And the problem is that the ordinary believer, wh does not personally want to have any control over anyone's life as an individual, enables that control to happen.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 11:03

No one's respect is necessary in order for me to maintain my opinion. Why would it? If someone said 'your opinion is silly/ridiculous' I might ask them why but the idea that I should/would feel aggrieved by what they thought about my opinions is strange. That said I would feel aggrieved if they were able to limit my day to day life somehow because of my thoughts, say, barring me from certain seats in the HOL or creating a school system where in certain areas my children had to attend a faith school, oh, but wait a minute, that is what's happening.

If you so fiercely need to protect your beliefs by not hearing criticisms then step away from online discussion threads of this nature.

There are prayer threads that non-believers don't go because they're clearly not for debate. We can tell the difference.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 11:04

Why would you need someone to respect your belief? What might happen if they didn't?

curlew · 02/02/2014 11:06

"There are prayer threads that non-believers don't go because they're clearly not for debate. We can tell the difference."

Absolutely. Which is why whoever asked the OP why she wasn't posting her views on a Bereavement thread would have been offensive if it wasn't so ridiculous.

BackOnlyBriefly · 02/02/2014 11:52

What often happens in these debates is the basic category error of person of faith = fundamentalist

It is important to remember that the poster you are talking to probably hasn't burned anyone at the stake, beaten an orphan in a workhouse or even ordered that a teacher be sacked for being gay.

However it's a mistake also to point to those committing the violence and abuse and say 'it's just them'

In order for fundamentalists to exist they must be immersed in a culture that reinforces their belief. It is essential that from an early age all significant adults tell them that belief is right and good and that looking for proof is somehow offensive or weak.

You can't be with the kids all the time, but if you can force their school to have all kids at least go through the motions of worship that will make it seem like everyone in the world believes too.

If you can't be sure that every adult the children come in contact with will reinforce the belief than the next best thing is to tell neighbours that it's rude for non-believers to discuss the matter or post it anywhere.

If you've managed all that to ensure that the next generation will follow your religion don't be surprised if some say "but these old people don't take it far enough. They are not true believers like us. It says in our holy book that our parents gave us that we should kill all the unbelievers and that's what we will do".

It ought to be a matter of pride actually as it means a job well done, but probably not the result you intended.

It's not all 'kill all the unbelievers'. You can replace that with 'sack all the gay people', 'Stone women for being raped' or ''Throw rocks at patients & staff entering an abortion clinic'. After years of lessons in believing religious people can generally find a passage that can be taken to refer to abortion clinics.

DioneTheDiabolist · 02/02/2014 11:57

It is not that I feel I need to fiercely need tto protect my beliefs, I fiercely need to disabuse others of the notion that most people are dangerous and childlike.

Prayer threads are support threads for believers. If someone posted on them that atheists were unkind or lacking in morals or anything else that suggested atheists were dangerous and lesser, then it would only be right that atheists or believers disabuse them of such a notion. When prayer threads become fronts for bitching about people with different beliefs please do not hold back.

Belief in god or afterlife is fine. Belief that there is nothing beyond the material is fine. Belief that atheists or believers are dangerous and lesser is bigotry and I challenge it where I see it. Just as I do with racism, misogyny etc. I challenged bigoted thinking when I was an atheist, I still do it now.

NumptyNameChange · 02/02/2014 12:34

but in the same way that your faith system and opinions inform you that non believers are lesser (however you may dress it up) clearly the opinions of those who are rationalists and/or materialists will inform them that they are right.

yet they should be silent? sit back and let children be exposed to something they see as harmful and be subjected to songs of praise on prime time tv?

curlew · 02/02/2014 12:46

"Belief in god or afterlife is fine"

Of course.

Thinking that belief entitles you to special privileges, or gives you the right to impose that belief on other people is not fine.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 13:46

But I see the notion of belief in a god who is interested in you as childlike. I see that belief as childlike. I don't see you as childlike. The only way I would stop seeing the belief as childlike would be when I could see that that god might be real. Your belief in god is childlike but you probably aren't.

niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 14:38

Where are these atheists that are being killed for their lack of faith? According to an item in the Huffington Post, a recent report by the International Humanist and Freethought Union found that there were 13 countries, all of them Muslim, where apostasy was punishable by death. But in the report no mention of any actual case where an atheist had been judicially killed for being an atheist or, indeed, murdered outside the judicial system. And, of course, the law in these cases applies equally to those people who chose to follow a non-Muslim religion. (There are plenty of recent reports of Christians being murdered for being Christian them being in church at the time is a clue.)

But this is an example of the kind of inflammatory rhetoric and lazy thinking that characterises so much atheist invective. The possibility that someone could be executed for being an atheist (in 13 of the worlds approximately 190 states) is turned into a completely fallacious received idea that atheists are being killed for being atheists all over the place. That is not to say that there are not countries where it is not easy being an atheist -- there clearly are. But the UK is not one of them.

You could dismantle other common received ideas of internet atheism in the same way. Indoctrination if it's so effective why is church membership declining? Of course parents want to pass their values onto their children I expect atheists do this too. They often want to call it critical thinking, but it actually comes down to 'think what I do'. And atheists whose children turn against their indoctrination and become religious often find it very difficult to cope with -- I remember a poster on here recently who said that her children becoming religious was second only to becoming drug addicts in her catalogue of parental fears.

Church schools fine, let's abolish them, but let's not forget that church schools exist because in the nineteenth century the church was the only organisation that cared to provide education for the children of the poor and that the bill to introduce universal free education was introduced by a Christian. Let's not forget, too, that the church bought the land and built the buildings of the schools. And that one of the reasons they still exist is because successive governments have not wanted to take on the transfer of ownership of all that land and buildings.

But it's easier to see religion as a vastly powerful web of oppression of ordinary powerful atheists even if there's no truth in the picture, it's a comforting myth. Perhaps it's a bit childish, to want to see yourself as a victim, I don't know. The idea that non-believers are helplessly subjected to the awful oppression of having to watch songs of praise on prime time tv strikes me as well, it's like complaining about being hit by a feather, isn't it?

It doesn't matter how many times people of faith say that they are not anti-atheist, or anti-women, or anti-gay. Either they are not proper Christians or Muslims, or they are simply acting as whitewash for others. What would be so awful about listening, for once?

niminypiminy · 02/02/2014 14:48

(I meant ordinary powerless atheists in the penultimate paragraph)

Re: the childlike-ness of belief in God. Is being childlike very bad? It seems to me that it is one of the qualities our culture reveres.

I think what headinhands probably means is childish, which has many more negative connotations. But in any case I would rebut this -- for me, the unillusioned realism that Christianity has about human nature is much more adult than the optimistic progressivism of atheist rationalism. But perhaps that's another conversation.

BackOnlyBriefly · 02/02/2014 15:22

Where are these atheists that are being killed for their lack of faith

If you were referring to my posts I said 'unbelievers'. You have just admitted that Christians are being killed for not being Muslim and I'm sure we can find Muslims being killed for not being Christian or not being Hindu. We could also talk about the Crusades, but there's enough of it happening right now.

Perhaps you assumed we were just talking about Christian behaviour towards atheists and that our only interest was the UK.

Indoctrination -- if it's so effective why is church membership declining I'd say it was declining because of education and free speech, but if you deny Indoctrination works then you are at odds with those religious leaders who claim there will be a disaster if more children are not forced to worship in school.

Of course parents want to pass their values onto their children - Yes but religious people insist on passing on their values to other people's children.

I remember a poster on here recently who said that her children becoming religious was second only to becoming drug addicts in her catalogue of parental fears.

I do too, but as I recall she didn't say she would stop them. Like most atheists I support the right of people to do things I don't like as long as it doesn't adversely affect others.

easier to see religion as a vastly powerful web of oppression of ordinary powerless atheists

If you look at history it was true for centuries and now we're resisting and the religious are being reduced to equal citizens. A disaster being mourned constantly in the news.

I suppose you are aware that there are extra spaces in the Lords for the CofE in addition to those Lords who would have been Christian in the normal way of things.

And you will know that school boards in Scotlands have to have representatives of the church by law.

headinhands · 02/02/2014 15:44

It's childlike to believe something that has no good reason to believe. What childlike qualities do you revere?

headinhands · 02/02/2014 15:46

As for unillusioned realism. What do you mean?

DoctorTwo · 02/02/2014 15:48

When you asked where atheists were being killed were you referring to this:-

I'm not mocking individuals, I'm mocking religion. If we're not allowed to do that we might as well become Saudi Arabia, Iran, Qatar, Yemen, or indeed anywhere you can be executed for either being an atheist or for mocking religion.

I posted last night? There are currently people in prison in Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Bangladesh for apostasy, most of them being atheist.

OP posts:
headinhands · 02/02/2014 15:49

I don't revere my child's belief in the tooth fairy. I think it's cute and sweet because it displays his gullibility and lack of reason. I don't admire it though or try to emulate those qualities.