Christian in an absolute pickle here

[springysofa]

Some really terrible things have happened on the domestic front (my kids) and I seem to have descended into a seething mass of resentment, anger, unforgiveness, despair - etc. All the etcs.

Although I believe totally, I can't see the point of anything that goes on in the church. I don't know what they're doing, feel a genuine confusion when they're doing what, to me, looks weird, irrelevant, bewildering. I find christians just too weird for words and can barely stand to spend time with them.

I go to a very big church and I have grave concerns about the running of the church - nothing new there if I'm honest - but I feel the deepest resentment and outrage towards this particular church. They are of the 'overcomers' persuasion and have no time for the broken-hearted. I also find them desperately middle class and smug and I feel entirely out of step with most things that go on. There is a big clique at the core of the church and it sometimes feels that we're all watching a party we're not invited to.

I have approached the pastor about my awful situation and the bottom line is that he doesn't want to know. The pastoral leader (what a joke!) is only interested in success and fame, from what I can see - someone like me with my broken heart is bad for the image and she just doesn't want to know; and has been very scathing towards me personally. She points me to a high-profile case where a member of the congregation lost a child in a senseless accident (made national headlines) and chides me that the mother has 'moved on' and is 'an overcomer', clearly stating that if she can do it then so should I. Although I don't know the mother personally, therefore can't comment on her journey towards some sense of peace, I feel seething hatred towards a culture that blames the victim.

I'm not the easiest customer. I am hurting soooo much. I don't know where to go, where I can find some basic common sense, from people who don't use God to avoid the sometimes gruesome realities of life.

I don't want to hate them but at the moment I could gun them down, frankly.

We are pleasing to God, regardless what we do , I should say.

Yes, asking God what He actually wants us to do is a good start and the Bible makes that perfectly clear: repent and be baptised every one of you.
Die to self, (you don't need your hands to 'crucify' yourself); accept that there will be suffering and just do the best you can.
I'm so sad that your church and its predecessors have tied you in such knots and so has the suffering you see around you.

My questioning is not because my church has tied me in knots - though I have found their bizarre take on things very confusing and distressing, and alienating. I would like to have a forum of some kind to discuss the questions I would erm like to discuss. Perhaps a lot of christians think they have it all sorted, more or less, and questioning is not required, not necessary. It is to me and I will probably be questioning, on some level, until the day I die. I recognise that there is rarely a forum to discuss and I don't push it (not worth it).

Use your imagination Dutch lol - the point about 'crucifying yourself' is that you can not do the job of triumphing over 'sin' yourself, it isn't possible - or we're in law territory. God does it. Which is probably why it is better to let God do his job, wherever it leads (which is a fundamental challenge: we want to do it ourselves). You tip up (that's an important part) and do your best, knowing you are accepted whatever you do: it's not what we do that he loves, necessarily, it's what, and who, we are.

You need to find peace and I don't think the peace you seek is to found from other people.

or even God.

Peace has to come from within, from finding the time to walk in beautiful country side, wander round beautiful buildings, swimming, go to the gym.

I'm an atheist, but I have a Cathedral side chapel I go and sit in when I need to really clear my head.

Faith is a beautiful thing to have, if like my DH or my Jewish DF, it gives you strength to face the bad times in life.

But sharing a Faith doesn't necessarily make other people any more supportive as friends. In fact I think it introduces a lot of superficial things to talk about and agree on that stops people really listening to each other.

Repent of what? There's the fundamental 'repent' of recognising that we need God, we're on a crash course (whether we're asleep or heading for disaster) without him.

Then what? He's got the sin question covered - he knows what it is, what it looks like, how it works out (how we just will be doing our own thing - whatever that means, the huge breadth of that - left to our own devices) and has gone to extravagent lengths to address it re Jesus. The church has fallen on the socialising aspect of doing things God's way - as he knows the full score and knows what works best. I don't, however, think he is concerned too much with 'good' and 'bad' (unlike the church, religion?) but what works best. For all concerned.

So if I kill somebody, that doesn't work best for either of us. It may assuage some of my anger and need for revenge/justice, but it won't be good for me in the long run - and obviously not good for the person I murdered, all in.

And not good for society, of course: 'the world'.

(I may also murder someone because of an impulse to CONTROL. Which is a kind of 'hype'r sin, if sin is doing things, insisting things are done, your way.)

what is 'the Mary thing' in teh RC church you can't get past

I am sorry if this offends anyone, but i really believe evangelical christianity can be cult like. I have my own experiences of knowing vulnerable people who are targetted.

of course i am sure this is not across the board.

I would say to you springy, that you should go to a church in the morning - try a RC one, just sit, comtemplate, pray, think. soak up the silence.

read the notice board. in any church there is a lot going on.

I have my own god issues - the positives about a RC church IME is that they are less acoustic guitar/tambourine/happy clappy and more about individual prayer and introspection.

there is always a wider international 'cause' to support at each church. coffee mornings, fair trade sales, church shop. een handing the books out before mass

but most of all - god is with you, he doesn't need a big house/church to know that you love him.

so, maybe lessen your formal group prayers to one sunday service and use the quiet of any open church for self reflection and personal prayer?

The World. Which is what God's eye is trained on imo (God so loved the world...). Collectively and individually, of course - he may love us to our boots but/and his eye is on the world. He wants the best for me but/and he wants the best for the world.

If you love a painting that someone has painted, Starball, you are loving the world the painter has presented - in a sense you are loving the painter, in that you are loving the vision the painter has formed for you to enjoy, be nourished by. Same with the beauty of nature imo. I would believe that God has made all that beauty for us to enjoy (sometimes), and that it says a lot about who he is and what he's like (lovely, fierce, beautiful, frightening, powerful, awesome, breathtaking, methodical...)

There aren't 4 legs to the stool, but 3. Mary isn't God (imo), the other 3 are. It jars for me when Mary is held up there as God. And worshipped.

re the cult-like aspect of churches, religions, strong beliefs - I couldn't be a leader, not leader material. It's all very well for me to say 'Look, you've got that wrong!' to any leader, but I couldn't be that leader - we'd be in a mess in a second. But it's important to have the 'look' people, and to listen (though I should imagine leaders have to learn to filter a lot of what comes their way).

but Mary isn't worshipped as a god, we are quite clear who is god, Jesus and the holy spirit.

i dont understand what you are saying about being a leader, i suggested going to a sunday service and then going to a church for prayer and reflection whilst its quiet - if you have aneed for support in a wider sense with lots of people that make you feel included, perhaps you could look elsewhere for that rather than the church?

I mean that when people believe strongly about anything, things can easily get cultish.

I would like to try the RC church - but I'd be excluded from the off. I wouldn't be able to take communion. But maybe that's better (I can take communion elsewhere - on my own if I want to!) than the insanity I've been hanging around in.

This seems to have dropped off. Crisis definitely not over, I'd appreciate some support please? I am in a bad, bad way after the terrible funeral of my friend's daughter who took her life (in a very violent way). There is more hideousness to the story and the funeral yesterday was too unbearable for words. I fear for my friend, please pray for her. It was like hell yesterday, like being in hell.

I'm sorry things are tough at the moment springy. Do you want to tell us about your friend's daughter?

springy I am so sorry for all you are going through.

I am a Christian and I too have had big problems with Christian churches of different denominations. Either no one really believed and it was all a social club, or else people believed but (imo) in a rabid, fundamentalist way that wasn't even close to true Christianity as demonstrated in the Bible.

I have been attending Quakers for about 9 months now and I intend to stay. It is different - perhaps too different for you? There is no communion and no service, just silence. By no means is everyone who attends a Christian. But no one attends just because their parents did, or because it's their social life. Everyone I have met is actively seeking the truth. Also I have not seen any hypocrisy and it is not a set-up that would allow hypocrisy, power grabbing etc to flourish.

Thanks, both. I'm not terribly coherent at the mo (docs today, given ADs [not easily iyswim ie not handed out like sweeties]. haven't cashed in the script but probably will). Situation too close to my own children tbf, can't talk about it, may do later.

I'm actually traumatised by yesterday (I dread to think how the mother, my friend, is!). It was truly terrible. the grandmother was saying it was a terrible, terrible day but her face was like stone, I couldn't work it out. Botox, it turns out lol (a little light-hearted vignette in the middle of hell. Black humour, is it?)

I popped into a little local place today which is known for prayer but of a contemplative sort. They aren't necessarily christians and I got to talk to the warden and we had quite a good talk for about 10 minutes. I'm blubbing all over the place today so it was a feat to keep composed but I managed it. I may go there again, though I didn't stay for the prayer, thought I would might sob and didn't know what would be appropriate (do people sob at the quakers Jean?). At the moment I feel I can't stand people talking their heads off when praying - I'm probably needing a more 'heart' thing, not 'head'. The warden was generally talking about his own beliefs - which are not standard christian - and that was a relief. I do stick on the Jesus thing but I'm sure God can take it if I explore a bit.

Just sending yo a gentle hug Springy as I feel you are all 'thought out'. So sorry the funeral was so terrible and yes I will pray for your friend as well as for you.

Thank you Dutch. I don't agree that I am 'all thought out', I think I am the opposite of that. I feel patronised for my thoughts, beliefs, ideas in the mainstream church; as though christians have it all sorted and tucked away, no need to get it out again as it's all laid out like an outfit every morning. I find this very difficult. Hemmed in and boxed in - judged, categorised.

I sound like a 6th former. Perhaps I'm going through my christian adolescence - except I have been a christian for over 30 years and have had at least one major crisis along the way.

(See? I felt I had to justify that I've been a christian for a long time! One woman who was praying for me [on The Prayer Team ], asked like a hallmark kitten how long I'd been a christian. When I told her, she blushed to the roots. Perhaps christians think that the longer you've been at it, the more seamless everything gets.)

praying for you springy. NO words of wisdom, just wanted you to know I care. Churches are flawed, because humans are flawed, but God is not. From your articulate posts I can tell you know that, don't want to teach you to suck eggs or patronise, but stand alongside you.

much love. xx

Praying here as well for you and friend.

I know I should probably have some decorum but I don't have any at the moment.

I think I am traumatised by what has gone on in the church, or my experiences of what has gone on. I know I'm not the only one (re the George group). It feels like eg coming out of the JWs, or Amish etc. ie cultish, restricting, RELIGIOUS. I am full of rage and contempt, pouring out. It is like coming out of an abusive relationship; a horror.

Yes, God is good, great, constant etc. I think you have to find that out in the working out, not just in your head. Perhaps you have to be undone if you have been put together all wrong? Perhaps we've all been put together all wrong.

A therapist would say I am blaming, not taking responsibility for my own actions. There is that I suppose.

springy do you have a therapist? I think you need to talk through what's going on with someone in real life. MN can be fantastic for support but I am getting the feeling that this thread isn't really helping you? You might feel better if you combined this with rl support too?

I do have a therapist, yes.

I'd like people to pitch in and discuss on this thread (though afraid it could get mired down in high-falutin theology, as with many previous threads on here. [She says, specifically ] )

My therapist referred to the drama triangle the last time I saw her ie if someone is in distress, people can either patronise or despise (the adult response would be to come alongside).

Hi springy. The churches you've described are absolutely abusive and there really is such a thing as abusive churches. There are some things I think would be helpful - write down a list of everything you want in a church (from the very minor like decoration to the very big like theology). Research churches in your area - literally just google 'churches in X Town' and loads will come up. Check out Mystery Worshipper reports for your area, if there are any - all sorts of churches are covered, they are just simple reviews of the services. Visit a different church every Sunday (or midweek if there are any midweek services). You need a church which fits you and there's nothing wrong with doing a bit of shopping around. In general it's best not to let a church know you're coming, you need to see them as they really are and not on show.

Re Catholics and Mary, Mary is absolutely not worshipped. It's about respecting Mary as having had such an incredibly important role as giving birth to God, and it says in the Bible that God lifts Mary up for this. Catholics ask Mary to intercede for us, but that's just asking Mary to pray for us, we're not praying to Mary as a deity. I am an Anglo-Catholic (v high Anglican) not RC but many of us have similar beliefs about Mary, as do Orthodox Christians. The Orthodox church doesn't believe in original sin btw.

What kind of thing do you like re singing, theology etc?