Christian in an absolute pickle here

[springysofa]

Some really terrible things have happened on the domestic front (my kids) and I seem to have descended into a seething mass of resentment, anger, unforgiveness, despair - etc. All the etcs.

Although I believe totally, I can't see the point of anything that goes on in the church. I don't know what they're doing, feel a genuine confusion when they're doing what, to me, looks weird, irrelevant, bewildering. I find christians just too weird for words and can barely stand to spend time with them.

I go to a very big church and I have grave concerns about the running of the church - nothing new there if I'm honest - but I feel the deepest resentment and outrage towards this particular church. They are of the 'overcomers' persuasion and have no time for the broken-hearted. I also find them desperately middle class and smug and I feel entirely out of step with most things that go on. There is a big clique at the core of the church and it sometimes feels that we're all watching a party we're not invited to.

I have approached the pastor about my awful situation and the bottom line is that he doesn't want to know. The pastoral leader (what a joke!) is only interested in success and fame, from what I can see - someone like me with my broken heart is bad for the image and she just doesn't want to know; and has been very scathing towards me personally. She points me to a high-profile case where a member of the congregation lost a child in a senseless accident (made national headlines) and chides me that the mother has 'moved on' and is 'an overcomer', clearly stating that if she can do it then so should I. Although I don't know the mother personally, therefore can't comment on her journey towards some sense of peace, I feel seething hatred towards a culture that blames the victim.

I'm not the easiest customer. I am hurting soooo much. I don't know where to go, where I can find some basic common sense, from people who don't use God to avoid the sometimes gruesome realities of life.

I don't want to hate them but at the moment I could gun them down, frankly.

I sometimes wonder if it would be better to be part of a persecuted church. Bear with me on this! ie a church that knows what it is there for, a church that isn't swaddled in comfort and money to the point that it feels it can take its time. I must be honest, I don't, underneath, have the patience for people for whom church is a social club, or a village that takes years to penetrate socially; who take their time deciding who they like the look of and want to know. Eg it incenses me if newcomers to a church are ignored. I'm just telling it like it is, I feel very strongly about this. I don't push it or even say it, but I am enraged if I see people gushing over their friends whilst ignoring the newcomer or outsider. imo church is for the outsider, not the ensconsed. Catch up with your friends another time, we're not here for that.

imo, and ime, serious stuff is going on (my life experiences bear that out, and I'm not the only one by any means!). I am attracted to ministries I know abroad, based in countries that are on their uppers in every possible way. They get down to the business quickly, know what they're there for. I suppose it's business I want, not a social club.

Perhaps I could follow up my (cursory) missionary training and get out there. However (honesty here), I dread being part of an org that is run by the british middle classes, for whom one is expected to be bland, holy, 'christian'

I am seeing a counsellor, Dione. She is great, or the process is great. She is not a christian, is rather of the new-age persuasion, I think (though I don't know for sure as she is professional enough to keep that out of it). There's only so far I can go with her iyswim. It's not ideal. I have been to christian counsellors. I have yet to find one who doesn't have more than very basic training.

But again it's troubles, focusing on troubles. Necessary, as you point out, but I'd like to be having a good time with the people who share my beliefs. I feel like a fish out of water with the people I should have the greatest connection with: fellow believers. I have a good time with my non-believer friends - my life works hard, I keep an eye on playing hard iyswim (necessary to get that balance I feel; one doesn't want to be defined by endless pain and suffering). I could easily be gobbled up by my troubles, I specifically don't want to do that.

Springy people are people are people. Here or abroad. I strongly suggest that before you make any big decisions regarding moving country, you get some professional help to help you process what has happened to you and your family.

You need to be strong for yourself and your family before you can be strong for others in need.

I think what I am describing is a normal life - having fun, being serious when appropriate. I go through some gruelling stuff and need to let my hair down, enjoy myself.

I suppose I feel that there is a very thin band I (one) is allowed to function in in a british mc church: not too much fun, not too much seirousness: no extremes! My dread of working for a british missionary org is because I fear that this narrow expression of christianity would be (much) more condensed in a foreign field.

What, so I park myself up in my dreary little agonising world and do nothing until God comes along and sorts me out? Until then, I'm no use to anybody?

I get it that people often use the idea of missionary work as an escape from troubles. I'm not necessarily looking to escape, I genuinely would like to experience 'the church' in a wider. global context.

Springy I am an agnostic, but have spent a lot of time around friends (lots of them very young) who are involved in this kind of church (for some it is wonderful, for others really very much not).

I honestly think that you need to stop going to this particular church, without question. They don't want to hear you or help you, and sound utterly without compassion. They don't want to be challenged about that either. Maybe try something more old fashioned for a while, somewhere that gives you the chance to worship and reflect, in communion with others, but take your time with digging right in to the active community of the church. Maybe for now practice your faith amongst another form of church?

Hope you find what you are looking for and are kind to yourself whilst you seek it.

Far from "parking yourself up" I think that you should get the professional help you need to deal with the fallout of the circumstances which have led you to a place of seething resentment, anger, despair and all the etcs.

Sometimes a change of location is all that is needed, more often though we take our troubles with us.. For this reason I believe that it would be better to try to sort it all out before you move. I am glad that you are seeing a counsellor, but if you think you have gone as far as you can with her then perhaps a referral to someone (possibly a psychotherapist) will help you go further.

OP have you tried going to a small, traditional C of E or Methodist church? The type filled with old ladies and slightly soggy biscuits afterwards? In my experience these are the churches that have the kindest and most welcoming congregations. They can be a bit shy or surprised to have newcomers but love having younger people around to help with flowers or tea and coffee.

It sounds like you need a quiet, friendly place where you can help out and concentrate on the spiritual side of life without being judged or gossiped about.

I'm sort you're having such a tough time. The kind of church you're describing gives me the heeby-jeebies.

Hi there springy firstly is sounds very much like you need to leave your current church.

Secondly I agree with Dione that you need really good, professional counselling (which I see you are getting). BTW I do know of several 'properly' qualified Christian counsellers so they are out there.

Thirdly, I'm a missionary in a relatively poor country (if you look at my previous posts on here you can work out where I am). We're independent so not with an organisation, mc or otherwise! And most people I know don't work in the way that you mention. BUT people are people all over the world and even though people here are poor and face some measure of discrimination (sometimes bordering on persecution) there are still fall outs in church, there are still difficult relationships. Unfortunately this side of heaven we aren't really going to get away from that

Being a missionary is very tough and when we were at college it was really emphasised that if you have 'issues' you need to deal with them at home before you go because they'll become much much worse and complicated once you're out on the field.

Finally, there are some brilliant faith communities in the UK which are definitely not mc social club type churches, eg churches that sprang from the Eden project in Manchester, and also one in Bradford that I read about recently but can't remember the name of. Maybe look into these and see if there's anything near you?

Springy,

I'm so sorry both for the underlying cause of distress and finding a supportive church.

When we moved here, i suggested we try x church whiich i thought would be closest to dh's theology. He refused on the basis that it seemed to be too happy! And he wad right, for us, because we cannot be happy all the time. Yes, rejoice in the Lord always, but actually that can be an underlying gratitude and reliance and not an " overcome" commandment.

I would say,

Bad things happen to good people, read Job. If you want to do a brain teaser, Augustine and Aquinas also have a lot to say, but actually Job has it.

Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death thy rod and thy staff comfort me.

The psalms are wonderful for the wounded heart.

I would use this thread as a support.

Like others I would also look at other churches in the area. Can you disclose where you are, sort of, and we might be able to make suggestions? (If you are concerned about anonymity, offer three or four areas so we will all be confused, eg NE London, Birmingham Portsmouth and Newcastle ( thinking of places big enough to have big churches. ).)

I took to a mixture of going at 8 am and to evensong and crying there. And not going.

On the spiritual desert point, nearly all the saints go through this. Sometimes it is grief, sometimes boredom and seeing everything as pointless, sometimes physical pain. The dark night of the soul is accurately described. Thomas Merton, Bernadette of Lourdes, Therese of Lisieux all experienced it. Not saying she is a saint, but Justin Welby's daughter is going through depression and non attendance atm. So you are normal. The important thing to do is to recognise that . And to realise that different people react in different ways, as you do. If your existing church doesn't, then it sounds as though it isnot the right one for you, certainly atm, and if we can help, we will. I find in such circs that the dryer protestant and the catholic end are more comforting than the middle, tbh, and certainly Catholic PPs are used to people weeping in the pews over dreadful things, at any rate the ones I know.

Th

springy

I know it's not the same but we are already all here for you.
You are most definitely not alone and not isolated from the world or fellow Christians!

but as I said before that church environment is toxic and harmful - I urge you to at least give it a break.
you need some clean, fresh air and a different perspective.

Oh I just want to pick you up and take you to my church, where the lovely old ladies coddle everyone and feed them tea and biscuits and just listen. It is so refreshing. Obviously not all of them, some need to learn to look at people having issues in their own community before trying to solve world peace, but, no church is perfect. Your church, however, sounds less perfect than most! As you say, being a Christian doesn't mean bad things don't happen, it just means God is with you through them, and it seems to me like your church denying this is a little heretical...

Thank you. It has already helped me enormously to post here. Thank you so much for listening.

I was just thinking while I was out that, if I did experience 'the church' in a global context, I would probably ultimately be happier with 'the devil I know' ie the british church. I am under no illusions that churches elsewhere in the world don't have their shocking underbellies.

But I do think the cultural straightjacket that is the british way of going about things is a large part of the problem for me. I find the middle-classness of so many british churches so hard to bear. I am not middle class, so for me it is doubly foreign. You'd think that Jesus was probably blond, tall, played cricket and went to a minor british public school. (You should hear some of the explanations for him losing his temper in the temple eg!)

it is a therapist I am seeing, a psychotherapist. I have had a lot of therapy in my life and have sadly had a very hard life. But there we go, I can't be dripping around about it. Going back to the comfortable lives of so many in the british church (not all, of course!!), I can't relate to all that comfortableness and happiness, it is so foreign to me. I bridle at assumptions that I am eg in a family; or christian literature that assumes eg that we are all married. It rubs it in, rather. Also eg the way british churches take off for the summer, openly promoting that they are 'spending time with their families'. For those of us with no families, who could do with the uninterrupted routine at times that are challenging, this is hard to take. (they justify this by saying the pastor needs a break - but why doesn't s/he get someone else in the church to take over?). I said 'smug' in my OP and this does sum it up. They have no idea what it is like for a lot of us. I don't come into the category of the down-and-outs, addicts etc (who also have to weather the summer break btw!) so don't get the luxury of the lavish patronising attention these people get. I'm not feeling sorry for myself here, I'm obviously very grateful my life hasn't totally hit the skids. It so easily could have.

Happily, I am assured that I am on the right track, as it were. I am currently reading HW Williams 'The True Wilderness' which confirms a lot of my core beliefs (and has also been my experience eg I seem to be getting larger not smaller lol!). I am also reading another of his books 'The Joy of God' and this, too, is closer to my experience. In many ways I have the deepest joy at the core, more marked because of the suffering I have and am experiencing.

It is more that I am lonely, I suppose, in that I seem to be so out of step with general christian expression and would love to be able to fellowship on a deeper level (or any level tbf!). I feel so rejected, and have been, very forcefully and personally. The 'largeness' I referred to in the last para also seems to be a challenge for the christians I meet, where the belief seems to be that we should be empty vessels with no individual expression. I don't large it about - but sometimes it pops out... I am a dress designer (so no medical expertise for me on the foreign field!) and this, also, doesn't go down well. Someone I know in the church saves me the 'How To Spend It' supplement from the Financial Times and calls it 'that revolting magazine'. But at least he accepts that it is valuable to me if he's saving it for me (it is the couture I pounce on). I also think that Jesus is just as lovely to the eye-wateringly rich, who have their own troubles (I should imagine!).

Hi Springy

I'm not sure I have any magic answers, but I do think you need to leave this church. This 'overcomer' culture you describe is not Christ-like and will only end up hurting you more.

I don't know if you are from a tradition that does this, but is there any possibility of you going on a retreat, even if it's just a day retreat? If you go to a retreat centre as an individual it's often possible to spend some time with a spiritual director to talk about your relationship with God and look at ways of deepening it, which could include talking about the problems you've encountered with different churches.

I think that many churches do drift into a sort of "comfort zone" and aren't very good at ministering to newcomers who are broken hearted.

My other suggestion would be to try a church in a city centre, like a cathedral congregation, at one of the quieter services. Ime they are better at ministering to people who don't "fit" the cosy suburban church model. They get a lot of newcomers who are in the middle of turmoil. A friend of mine who is a priest used to be in a church like this and said there were always loads of people just walking in off the street in distress wanting to talk to someone.

There are many places that offer retreats but one of the most calming, spiritually refreshing and awe-inspiring places to go on one is Ampleforth. It's a Catholic monastery but they happily do eye treats for people of all denominations.

Springy - if Jesus came to your church I reckon he'd be sitting there, holding your hand and listening to your troubles and not hanging out with the clique! I have been to a number of Anglican churches in my time and experienced similar feelings as you.(Sorry if that offends anyone).
Now to my surprise I'm coming back to the RC church inspired by both the new Pope and this rather amusing website www.conversiondiary.com/jen

If you get to a retreat centre then I'm sure that would help. (Slight envy as I"d love to do a proper retreat!!). Good luck and remember you're not alone.

Oh dearest Springy.

They sound fairly dreadful. I feel so sad that they promote this whole 'overcoming' thing completely over and above any kind of real-ness. Churches I feel most at home in are those which display a kind of vulnerability, right from the leadership across to all members. There is integrity in admitting to the brokenness. Covering it up with all this overcoming business just sticks a plaster over a gaping wound. The cliqueyness sounds terribly hurtful and the way the pastor prayed with you sounds completely dodgy to me. I think you'd be well out of there, to be honest.

I do know what you mean about the middle classness of the british church. It can be like that. But it is not always like that. There are many, many exeptions. Many who do church with honesty, integrity, compassion, sincere welcome. I would encourage you to branch out, perhaps look at some different traditions and styles of being church. Maybe you need something smaller, to help you heal, to stand with you in your pain, rather than tell you you are somehow wrong to be experiencing your pain. :(

The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of joy
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.

This. This is the centre of the gospel. Why are churches like this one denying the brokenhearted, and not being Jesus to them? This is why Jesus came down among us. We are messy, we get it wrong, we fail. BUt there are those who come a little closer, I think, to the way it should be. Please leave this place and find a place which comforts those who mourns, which binds up the brokenhearted.

I think a lot of you, Springy, we've talked a lot on here. There are Christians out there who think like you, who long to be more real about their faith, their life and their pain. Don't give up hope.

Where abouts are you in the country? (you don't have to say)

I believe that Isaiah quote from the bottom of my heart. After the 'good news' it is the first thing he says: He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted. I believe this and know he is with me - and all the broken-hearted - a big crowd! He was despised and rejected, after all. (I feel a bit silly to say I am despised and rejected but there seems to be no other way to describe what has happened.)

I have been attracted to the RC church because they seem much more realistic about the erm foibles of us human beings. But I can't get past the Mary thing. And I would miss communion so much.

I have never been to a christian festival and have the fear about them if I'm honest - all those christians! it would be like I'd died and gone to hell but I wish I'd made the festival in the summer, can't remember the name of it, where people are more questioning and look more deeply into their faith.

I have some ghastly experiences of retreats I'm afraid but will look at some of the places you mention. I'm in the massive attack neck of the woods btw.

Massive attack?

Gosh, the idea of closing down in the summer is new to me. Yes the vicar goes away for two weeks, but that's basically it. The choir goes on holiday, I suppose, and goes down to about 6 people, but those of us who are on the other rotas just continue and there is no let up. How could there be? Jesus didn't say stop dying, being born, please, because I am going to the red sea or Tuscany sur galilee for six weeks.

I'm died in the wool cofe and middle class but Mary's words in the magnificat are wonderful he hath exalted those of low degree/humble and meek ( whatever translation you like) while

He hath scattered the proud in the imagination if their hearts..

You could use her as someone you can think about, who had to cope with all sorts of dreadful things. She could have been stoned for adultery, she had to see her son die before her, she lost him at one point. It seems to me that your church might have found it hard to accept her too. Pretty poor parenting by modern standards. MN would be appalled.

I too hated all the emphasis on couples. And going on about the family. And not having space for single people who might be single out of choice or might not.

But you are making me wonder how we can reach out to others in out church too. I don't think we are the one you are talking about, I hope not ( we are not very cheerful) but thank you for making ne ask myself.

If you can't face a retreat, could you a) find another spiritual director, and b) take yourself somewhere lovely for a day with a book ? A cheap spa? Where if you cry it could be tears or water or sweat?

Springy - I am so sorry that you are going through this. I think you've had some thoughtful responses on here, but it does sound as if you're looking for some support IRL as well as virtually on here through these difficult times.

I really don't believe in the 'overcoming' rubbish theory at all. Some of the people whose Christian faith has most inspired me are people who have struggled so much, who've been through dark times, not with a smile on their faces saying 'it's OK, God will help me to overcome this', but with tears and doubts and to-ing and fro-ing, but who've managed to hold onto their faith despite it all. It seems to me that your church should be acknowledging and trying to suport your through your broken-heartedness, not belittling your response to it.

I would agree that you need to stop going to this church, where you are getting messages that are the opposite of helpful. I wonder if you might try going to the CofE church on a Sunday morning instead of just on weekdays. Congregations are usually very small on weekdays, IME, but Sundays might have a very different 'feel', and be much more community oriented, and you might find a kindred spirit there. I understand that the 'stand-up-sit-down'-ness of the CofE church can feel very rigid if that's not what you're used to, but it can also be comforting in a strange way to follow a pattern of prayer and worship. (Feel free to ignore this; it's what I grew up with, so of course it feels 'normal' to me, but I did find, when I first started going back to church after a long time away, that the patterns and familiar repeated words were more helpful than offputting.)

If you're happy for me to do so, I'd like to add your name to the prayer thread on here (I won't unless you tell me it's OK to do so though), and we will think of you and pray for you. There's no need to come and post yourself if you don't want to. Thinking of you!

I cross posted with just about everyone (or possibly just forgot to read page 2 ) so sorry if what I just wrote misses several points, but the spirit behind it still holds anyway. xxx

Greenbelt is the festival I'd like to go to btw.

yes I've had some great responses - I'm sorry I haven't acknowledged that. I suppose I have been spilling out and haven't been able to break my stride. Apologies. I really am very grateful that people have taken the time to post. Apart from anything, it confirms that I do, in fact, exist! I have felt so invisible and downtrodden.

The bottom line is that I am frightened of churches, and frightened of christians. I'd love to have had some good experiences but I honestly think I have not - I've had appalling experiences, too many to mention. I had a good connection with a guy once, who was diagnosed bipolar. Somehow he was able to get on the right side of the PTB and they all think he is marvellous. Not quite sure why his face fits... but he is someone who has suffered. No doubt he is sufficently 'overcoming' and therefore acceptable. He is getting appropriate treatment now and, I suppose, his story has a beginning, middle and end. Nicely packaged to be served up, palatable because the crisis is over. Anyway, he has a wife and he was making no attempts to introduce her when it obviously presented itself, so I backed off.

I was also part of a housegroup for a short time that imo was the real deal. At a stroke the pastor disbanded all housegroups due to some flakey edict from an american church he was in thrall to (the ones who, when they swept into town visited us made a huge HUGE fuss from the pulpit of the famous actor in the congregation, joking with him, repeatedly sucking up to him speaking to him directly. Once again, we were all supposed to stand by and watch the party).

Well, I won't be setting the alarm tomorrow but I'm not saying it will be easy. Please pray for me on this. I don't know why I find it so hard to leave a church, but I do (especially as they will barely notice I've gone?). Tuo I would love to be on the prayer list - thank you.

Way back in the day I lived in a house with people who introduced me to Jesus. They used to hold a meeting for people who had been chewed up by the church. Except they didn't call it a meeting because these people were so traumatised they couldn't cope with church lingo. They called it a George.