Welcome to muslim tea room 2.

[defuse]

Peace to you all

Ok, well here it is again...we have moved to room 2 now

Discuss whatever aspect of islam you like my lovely sisters - this is a place for muslims and non-muslims too, to share experiences, raising kids or just having your say!

The kettle is on.... We have loads of herbal teas, coffee and guava juice .... I like guava juice so welcome!

[worldcitizen]

I know so many cultures where feeding once or twice (early morning and late one before sleeping) until the age of 2.5 or even 3 is absolutely normal.

Still allows for this special closeness and unique body contact and calming and soothing.

[EmbroideredCloths]

I'm going to try making the chai with evaporated milk for DH today. He has a sweet tooth and loves sweet milky coffee so I'm thinking spiced chai will go down well.

Sadly I have gestational diabetes and though it's only borderline and diet controlled I'll have to wait til March before I can have some sweet chai myself.

[worldcitizen]

Hello everyone,
I wish you all a hopefully wonderful 2014 with lots of happiness, health, and good fortune

Yes, the links are awesome and very informative and helpful. I truly appreciate all this help and advice.

And another yes to your question about me being raised Muslim myself. Yes indeed, I have been raised exactly the same way all my cousins and others in my age group have been raised in Europe and the Maghreb.

Me having been signed up by my parents in Christian child-care and primary school wasn't even considered unusual as this has not been uncommon in the Maghreb itself in the 30's, 40's and up.

Also, my strong interest with dialogue and peaceful living with Jews as well, has not been uncommon in my parents's upbringing as this used to be the norm for ages in the Maghreb and also Egypt and various other countries in the Near and Middle East.
So my parents are in their late 60's and early 70's now are of the generation and also the ones who are older than them who find this actually very normal.

I do not wear a headscarf and my mother never has and tons of women, actually over 85% never have and do not.
I also do not pray and do not fast while having (had)normal regular school, uni, and work responsibilities.

My parents didn't want me too,, when I was still a minor. They didn't not want me to be harmed or get repurcussions from a fasting situation which German culture, school responsibilities etc. weren't taking Ramadan into consideration.

I have found my own alternative way with the help of my parents.

I very much look into similarities of all three monotheistic religions. I like the Old testament la lot as the common denominator.

I love, more and more the older I get, the idea of fasting and try to get more into how all these 3 religios fast and why.
So, I actually spread timing (4 times 10 days) across the year and very much include the Catholic fasting time as well by also sitting in the Catholic church to be close to God.

Why Catholic, well the Protestant ones here are not as beautiful and they are very cold and somehow inside I feel a distance. So, I go, where I feel there is a spirit I can feel.
Orthodox churches are also very much what I like.

We also have some (not a lot) few beautiful mosques...and I love it in there.

My parents, but also by my extended family, which also includes a grear-great uncle who was a very great Imam in the famous and very important mosque in Tunis and Uni professor for Islamic Theology, have raised me to look for comfort and look for connection in any other holy and blessed place, if I feel like it.

Oh and I know others who grew up that way and see it nowadays this way as well.

Does that make sense to you?

[peacefuloptimist]

Thank you EmbroideredCloths for your reply. You and worldcitizens are giving me hope that weaning ds off the breast is not going to be as traumatic as I feared.

Wow Crescent that video you posted is kind of scary because its so true. I went to a restaurant once and saw a whole table full of people all taping away on their phones, no one speaking. I thought how odd that phones can make you look so antisocial in such a social environment. I hate the whole selfies craze as well. I have younger relatives who will take pictures of themselves (and get you to take them too) doing silly poses wherever you go out with them and one even took a picture of the packaging of some sweets we had bought together to post on instagram. Are people really interested in such mundane things like that? I think its a generational thing though. But I dont think I will give up my evening time with my laptop though. Its much cheaper than therapy.

World its interesting to read about your upbringing. I know what you mean about enjoying looking for the similarities between the three faiths. I do too. It makes me sad sometimes how many unnecessary conflicts there are between people of the Abrahamic faiths. I mean even if we all held on to our differences there are so many similarities between us that we should be able to get along. The Quran has a beautiful verse in it which addresses this inter religious dialogue.

'Say: Oh People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians)! Let us come to common terms between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (to God).' Holy Quran, Chapter 3; Verse 64.

Since joining mumsnet and posting on the philosophy and religion thread I have been struck by how similar some of the things the christian mumsnetters say is to our own understanding. Essentially we speak the same language, how could we not when so many of our Prophets are shared. A Rabbi, Priest or Imam would give very similar sermons about the lessons learned from the stories of Abraham, Moses, Noah and Joseph (peace be upon them all). Its sad though that some people (from all three of the faiths) prefer to fixate on differences rather than build on our commonalities. There was a facebook group I saw that was based on this idea from the Quran of coming to a common agreement between different faiths.

www.facebook.com/ComeToCommonTermsAsBetweenUsAndYou

[worldcitizen]

Oh that's interestin peaceful.

I am very, very sure to the bottom of my heart, that we humans are not meant to be fighting.

I sometimes ask myself, if this is all a test. I am very serious, it sounds stupid, but I read on here (the first thread) about how important sincereity is.

That was actually very touching. My father always held that up high. he always sais that he felt as a parent and also as his reponsibility not only as a parent, but as a Muslim to raise us to be believers and to wholeheartedly feel from the inside that all our actions are sincere.

He couldn't stand insincerity and the same is also my best friend who is Roman Catholic and a theologist herself and a former nun, who is now a community organiser of a interreligious faith group here.
Her employer is the Catholic university for applied social sciences in Berlin which has attached to it the German Institute of Community organising headed by Professor Leo Penta (an Italian U.S. American who is also a Jesuit priest...)

The funny thing is she leads several groups which are mostly Muslim and also Christian, and 70% are from various African countries and the rest are Turkish.

But all of them are 2nd generation Turkish-Germans and 1st generations Black Africans with their children being born here.

They want to be able to be Muslim and live their faith and teach their children but also be Germans and Europeans and live peacefully together...

It's not impossible, I grew up that way. my parents thought since the 60's it would get better, but instead it just got worse these past years

Which is why I will start to speak up and stand up, this is my resolution from 2014 on....and hopefully for many years to follow.

I don't see why I should leave it to others to explain and disseminate their version of islam etc.
And yes, there are lots of Christians and even Jews (also the ones who left Israel to live here) who would love this.

It's not impossible and history proves whe have had this for many, many centuries already.
What's happening on the political front in the past 50 years or so....shouldn't derail what has been wonderful for many centuries before.
I personally do not even think there is that much difference between the three abrahamitic religions.

What I see is more an issue between believers and atheist.

[defuse]

Thank you worldcitizen for reminding me of the sheer importance of sincerity - ikhlas. It is such a crucial part of islam. I must admit, MN has made me realise the extent of the issue between an atheist and a believer, but the verse that is so perfect for the situation is how Allah the most wise says:

To you be your Way, and to me mine. (109:6)

Back to ikhlas.... A very deep and fundamental topic in islam.

The Exalted said:

"And whoever desires the Hereafter and strives for it as it should be strived for while being a believer then his striving will be acknowledged (rewarded)." [Al-Qur'an 17:19]

There are some other useful definitions of ikhlas: (sunnah online.com)

It is the freedom of the desire for nearness to Allah from every blemish or impurity;
It is singling out Allah with one's intention in all acts of worship;
It is forgetting the sight of the creation by continual observance of the Creator; and
It is to hide your good deeds just like you would hide your evil deeds.

A great article about sincerity here - a fantastic reminder:

www.suhaibwebb.com/personaldvlpt/character/ikhlas-the-foundation/

Ok, now to something a bit lighter

I breastfed my dd until she was 22 months. I thought i deserved a pat on my back ( where is the ikhlas in that!) until i read about others who have faced bigger challenges and persevered.

Ok, i have a new issue to tackle, dd sucks her thumb and is constantly sucking her thumb. Now her front teeth are beginning to stick out, her thumb looks really sore and her nail is soft and doesnt grow properly. i need this to stop now! I have tried the bitter nail polish thing but she just licks it off and continues sucking. So i was now considering this contraption which is not cheap! If anybody has used it, i would love to hear about how effective it was and whether its worth forking out so much.

[worldcitizen]

Hello everyone,

and thanks defuse for more input.

I am sorry, I cannot say anything worthwile about getting rid of thumb-sucking. I do remember though that this used to be one of greatest fears I would have to challenge, but thankfully I was not put into that situation to deal with.

I hope someone will know and have good ideas.

[worldcitizen]

Hello,
no have not noticed any spelling mistakes other than my own please don't judge.

Never heard of ROSCA's ever before. Thanks for the link, I will read with interest.

I will try to stay and add something worthwhile. See I have only one child and she is older and I don't remember much of child-rearing difficulties...thank God

But I think I can add to multicultural and multi-lingual family life etc. i hope I can at least

[peacefuloptimist]

Just wanted to make you aware of this online seminar tonight.

The Women Scholars in Islam - FREE ONLINE SEMINAR

By Shaykh Dr Mohammad Akram Nadwi

Date: Friday 3rd January 2014 | Time: 7.00pm GMT

Introductory Seminar on History of Female Scholarship in Islam and The Role of Muslim Women in The Society

Discover the hidden legacy of the female scholars of Islam and the role of Muslim women in society throughout history in this amazing online seminar, based on the ground-breaking research and revolutionary findings of Shaykh Dr Mohammed Akram Nadwi on this generally unknown and unexplored area. This seminar is for both men and women and it will help restore balance and understanding between each other in line with the Prophet Muhammad's statement "Women are The Twin Halves of Men".

Brought to you by Cambridge Islamic Sciences Worldwide

Register @ bit.ly/MuslimWomenScholars

I really like Sheikh Akram Nadwi. His talks are really relevant and engaging. I had to register when I read this;

"God has given girls qualities and potential. If they aren’t allowed to develop them, if they aren’t provided with opportunities to study and learn, it is basically a live burial." - Shaykh Dr Mohammed Akram Nadwi

referencing the pre-Islamic ritual in Arabia of burying baby girls which the Quran outlawed. I totally agree with him.

[peacefuloptimist]

I dont know why but its seems like there has been a deliberate cover up of the history of female scholarship in Islam. Just in the field of hadith sciences alone there have reportedly been over 9000 muslim women scholars who were considered experts in that field. Can you imagine! Why dont we know about them?

Defuse I had a look at the thumb guard. It looks so futuristic. Like something out of the Jetsons. But I wonder how comfortable it would be. I dont know how old your daughter is but maybe you could try a reward chart or something with her where you give her a star for not sucking her thumb in a given amount of time i.e. an half an hour, an hour etc. Then reward her when she gets a certain number of stars or goes without doing it for a longer period of time e.g. a day. Just an idea.

[fuzzywuzzy]

People would come from far too learn at the feet of the mother of the believers, of course the bulk of scholarship would be with the women of Islam if you think about it logically, the women of the household were first hand witnesses to the unfolding of Islam, they were a source of comfort and consolation and counsel as well, and they were all very gifted in their own right.

Female scholarship is glossed over because men do not want women to get uppity and start expecting their rights. It's better to keep them uneducated to keep them in their place.


Regarding thumb sucking I grew out of it (eventually), my eldest still sucks her thumb, it gives her comfort so I don't really do anything, the dentist did say she may end up needing braces eventually, but her teeth don't look bad at all Alhumdulillah. She's a very determined thumb sucker tho, when she has henna on her hand she will suck the other thumb! I've tried to put henna on both hands and she then doesn't sleep till she's beyond exhausted.

Someone once told me they put bandages on their little brothers thumb at night when he used to suck his thumb and told him it was a booboo, he eventually stopped sucking his thumb because of that trick.

It wouldn't work with dd as she swaps thumbs.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I accidentally ended up in Jummah today, I've started walking up to the masjid and praying very quickly. However I got the tail end of the Khutbah today and didn't want to rush off so stayed.

The Imam was very eloquent, the end of his Khutbah he said 'Raise your hands when you make Dua, for Allah in his greatness is shy to turn away the suppliant who raises his hands to him in Dua empty handed'.



Happy Jummah (almost over), make Duas in these last minutes as they may contain the moment of acceptance inshallah.

[defuse]

Salaam all,

peaceful i am gutted that i have just seen your message about the seminar. I would have loved to have watched it. Is it still available to watch online? I am shocked to hear that we had 9000 female muslim scholars at one time. Now its hard to find even one. I have a question for a scholar - not necessarily a female one, but dont know how to access one as i am based up North. Most of my info comes from the odd sisters circles that attend and reading books and internet. Because there is quite a bit of detail required for my question (more like an essay!) it would be so much easier to talk to one rather than write it all out because i will no. Doubt leave some aspect out - unless anyone is aware of forum type of scholar q&a where they can leave any further questions fir you and you can add any further info before you get a fatwa.

Thanks to peaceful and fuzzy for your advice on thumb sucking. I wouldnt have been too bothered had dd's teeth not already been looking the way they are and she isnt even 3 yet! I will try the reward chart, but i doubt she will co-operate. Dont really want to pay out so much for that thumb guard, but have seen a type of glove for the thumb so might pay £16 and and try that first. I just know dd will be awfully upset with the thumbguard but might not be too upset with the glove thingy.

[peacefuloptimist]

Salams all

Embroidered I just re-read what you wrote and realised your expecting. Congratulations How has your pregnancy been? Gestational diabetes must be really tough to deal with. It was a big fear of mine that I would get that because diabetes runs in my family so I used to always be slightly nervous when they would measure my sugar levels. I hope the rest of your pregnancy goes smoothly and your labour is stress-free. Wasnt Gosh expecting too? Does anyone know if she has given birth yet?

Defuse, it was absolutely brilliant! It started at 7 and lasted for just over an hour. Im not sure if its online still but I hope they put it up because Sheikh Akram Nadwi was amazing. There were so many incredible things he said that it really boggles the mind that this is not known more widely in the muslim world but as Fuzzy said there are some people who prefer women to be unaware of this great history as it makes them easier to control. Fuzzy its not just the Mothers of the believers there were sooooo many more female scholars. In the end I just had to grab a pen and paper and write some of the names down and some of their great achievements. I thought I would share some of it with you.

Well first we cant start mentioning female scholars without mentioning Aisha RA who narrated 2,210 and in the six books of hadith, she narrates the most hadith after Abu Hurayrah RA. After the death of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH she became a point of reference for the muslim community. Abu Musa al Ashari said "Whenever any matter became difficult for us, the Companions of the Prophet PBUH, then we asked Aisha about it and we found she had knowledge of that".

Other famous women companions who related many hadith were Umm Salamah RA (378 hadith); Asma bint Yazid RA (81 hadith), Maymunah, umm al muminin RA who narrated 76; Hafsah, umm al muminin RA who narrated 60 and Asma bint Umays RA (60 hadith). In fact he said 25% of the hadith are narrated purely from women and the other 75% are narrated from a mixture of men and women (i.e. women and men both narrated those hadith). He even mentioned how the hadith narrated by women would take precedence over mens in many cases. For example for the sunnah salah before dhuhr that was disputed between the men (who narrated the prophet PBUH prayed 2 rakats before dhuhr) and the wives of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH (who said he prayed 4 before dhuhr). He said in the hanafi madhab they take the opinion of the wives of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH because he used to pray sunnah at home so they would be better informed.

In the generation after the companions of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH you also had some great female scholars. Amrah bint Abdul Rahman studied under Aisha RA and the great caliph (caliph means ruler) Umar Ibn AbdulAziz said about her 'No one is now living who has more knowledge of the hadith of Aisha than Amrah' and he would seek her counsel! Another male student of hers said 'I came to her and I found her an ocean of knowledge, its water never goes'. Hafsa bint Sireen was also one of the most famous scholars of hadeeth of that time. When Hassan al Basari and Ibn Sireen were mentioned in front of Iyaas bin Muaawiyah (a famous judge if that time), he openly stated that in his opinion, no one surpassed Hafsa bint Sireen.

Another famous female scholar from that period was from Syria and her name was Umm al Darda. She would spend 6 months teaching in Damascus in the Ummayad Mosque and then 6 months teaching in Jerusalem in Masjid al Aqsa - the third holiest mosque in Islam. Imagine some men think women shouldnt even come to the mosque and here you have a woman teaching in the 3rd holiest mosque. He mentioned others who taught in the mosques in Makkah and Madinah so the 1st and 2nd holiest mosques too and in both cases they taught men and women. There was one he mentioned as well (cant remember her name now) who was selected and paid by the ruler of Syria to be the primary hadith teacher in an educational institution in Damascus (cant remember exactly the name). So anyone going there would have to go to her to learn hadith and she was paid to do the job.

He also gave examples of women scholars from non-Arab backgrounds. For example Fatima bint Abu Ali al Hasan and Aisha bint Hasan ibn Ibrahim from Iran who were both famous teachers in their times. Even in Herat, Afghanistan there was a famous female scholar called Biba bint Abdul Samad who it was said about her 'the people who learnt hadith from her cannot be counted'. Also an African woman called Abida was an expert in relating hadith. She married Walid al Dahoon al Andalusi who took her to live in Spain with him where she narrated over 10,000 hadith of Imam Malik bin Anas and several other Madani scholars and she became the source of the spread of the Prophet’s (PBUH) teachings in Europe.

A really famous one as well was Karimah bint Ahmad al Marwaziyyah who was originally from Turkmenistan but travelled to Jerusalem, Isfahan, then finally Makkah in pursuit of her studies. She was considered to be the expert of Sahih Bukhari in her time and many people would travel from far and wide to listen to her teach in Masjid al Haram in Makkah. He said she is considered to have made the best copy of Sahih Bukhari (she would not allow her students to buy copies of the book and instead would make them copy the hadith from her copy and then she would check it with them that they had copied it correctly before allowing them to learn from her) and most of the ones we have today rely on her version written centuries ago because the chain of narration between her and Bukhari was very short. One of the most outstanding figures in the history of hadith was Fatimah bint Abdillah al Juzdaniyyah who also taught in Isfahan. She had many many students who went on to be famous scholars in their own right including Fatimah Bint Sa'ad who first came to learn from her when she was 4, then came back when she was 10-11 and finally when she was 16. Her father took Fatimah from China to Isfahan to learn hadith, then to Baghdad and she finally settled in Egypt and it was said that the hadith sciences had declined in Cairo until she got there and revived it again. Amatullah bint AbdulGhani from India was also another famous scholar. She used to teach in Madinah and in fact had the authority to award ijazahs to men who studied hadith from her.

I know this is a major overload but I just wanted to share because this is something we dont hear about often. I have barely scratched the surface of what he mentioned. There is a great book called 'Al Muhaddithhat - the women scholars in Islam' written by Akram Nadwi which has more information on this topic. Dr Farhat Hashimi (a contemporary famous female scholar from Pakistan) has written an article on this topic too here

Somebody asked a question about what caused the decline in female scholarship. He gave a really interesting answer. He said that when the study of Greek Philosophy became popular female scholarship went down (in fact there are no muslim female scholars of Greek Philosophy listed). He said this was because they were influenced by the ideas of Aristotle (who was one of the most influential misogynists you can think of) who didnt put much worth in to teaching women or on women as human beings at all so they didnt either. He said whenever hadith sciences became popular then you would see an increase in female scholarship again because there was more respect for women whilst the study of Greek philosophy caused men to despise women and look down on them.

Another really interesting thing he said was that there are 100s of men who are known to have fabricated hadith but there is not one women who is known to have fabricated hadith.

Did anyone else manage to watch it?

[worldcitizen]

Wow peaceful it's amazing how much you know!!!! So amazing and interesting.

Will read with pleasue and great interest

[peacefuloptimist]

I dont know anything worldcitizen. Im just repeating what I heard yesterday in that online seminar and (whispers) I have the book by Sheikh Akram Nadwi. But to my shame I didnt read it until yesterday when I needed to remind myself of the names and achievements of the female scholars before posting .

[UmmSHI]

That all sounds so interesting peaceful. I wish I had caught the lecture yesterday as well. Is there a book of the lecture then? If so could you link it please, or whichever book you are talking about. JazakhAllah khair, what you have posted is so informative.

[worldcitizen]

This ROSCA sounds really lie it makes sense. I actually would save as I feel I Need to do it as I am not only answering to myself but to the other group members as well.
So, beside us being able to Access a larger sum at once without interest and hassle and embarrassment, it actually helps me saving as well.

Again, never heard of this before. It sort of creates a bond as well and gives a feeling of being supported and also the wonderful feeling of helping others in return as well.

Very empowering

[worldcitizen]

Wonderful!!!! I am seeing my mother tomorrow, I'll ask her about it.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I've a friend in Amman and this is how she bought her house, her husband was part of a ROSCA and each month one member of hte group got the massive lump sum.

I remember her telling me to do this to buy my house, I found it slightly bemusing how quickly she suddenly forgot how difficult it would be to do in the UK.

This method of finance is very popular in India amongst the Muslim community and the Middle Easst. The group of friends have to be trustworthy tho and usually there is a written contract stipulating the terms ie that each member will contribute till the entire group has received their savings back you are tied in for the entire duration you can't quite midway (or when you've had your money).