Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Welcome to muslim tea room 2.

999 replies

defuse · 30/12/2013 22:18

Peace to you all Smile

Ok, well here it is again...we have moved to room 2 now Grin

Discuss whatever aspect of islam you like my lovely sisters - this is a place for muslims and non-muslims too, to share experiences, raising kids or just having your say! Smile

The kettle is on.... We have loads of herbal teas, coffee and guava juice .... I like guava juice Grin so welcome! Smile

Brew
OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
fruitcake12 · 12/05/2014 01:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Elusive · 12/05/2014 14:45

Salaam fruitcake12 and welcome to muslim tea room.

I have read through your message and there is some missing at the end. Please could you re-post the missing bit.

I can only imagine how stressful and difficult the situation may be for you at the moment. Please post the rest of the message - it stops at the mention of your daughter's divorce. Sad so sorry to hear about all the hard time that you have been through. In the mean time, i will try to find some helpful links inshallah.

Take care Thanks

crescentmoon · 12/05/2014 15:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Elusive · 12/05/2014 15:42

Thats a really good point about having a will fruitcake, that crescent has made.

Also, how is your relationship with your step- daughter when she visits during holidays and how is her relationship with her father?

Also, is it a civil ceremony or a nikah only? I am waiting to get the full story before i try to be 'helpful' just in case I miss something major.

UmmSHI · 13/05/2014 10:52

Salam fruitcake. Didn't want to read and run, although I have no advice. Except to mimic what has been said about a will. You sound as though you have been through a hard time, so may Allah give you ease. I hope you manage to resolve the issues you are having.

fruitcake12 · 13/05/2014 15:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fruitcake12 · 13/05/2014 15:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fruitcake12 · 13/05/2014 15:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fruitcake12 · 13/05/2014 15:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fruitcake12 · 13/05/2014 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fruitcake12 · 13/05/2014 15:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

peacefuloptimist · 13/05/2014 22:32

Salamalaykum fruitcake

Im so so sorry about what your going through. I had tears in my eyes reading your posts. You can really tell that you have suffered alot and you are in a lot of pain. Im glad that you came back and finished off your post because I dont think your situation is a simple case of a stepmother not wanting her stepdaughter to live with her.

Im not sure what advice to give you because it really is beyond my realm of experience but I didnt want to leave your posts unanswered and I just wanted to say please dont think Allah SWT does not like you. Allah is The Most Merciful, The Most Forgiving, The Most Loving, The Most Kind. Allah is not the one who hates and I dont think a person like you who has suffered a lot is deserving of hatred. Whatever has happened in the past, whatever it is you think has gone wrong or whatever you regret always remember the following verse from the Quran and hadith.

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.." [Surah Az Zumar:53]

"Allah says, 'I am as my servant expects Me to be, and I am with him when he remembers me. If he thinks of Me, I think of him. If he mentions Me in company, I mention him in an even better company. When he comes closer to Me by a handspan, I come closer to him an arm's length. If he draws closer to Me by an arm's length, I draw closer by a distance of two outstretched arms nearer to him. If my servant comes to Me walking, I go to him running." (Al-Bukhari)

Turn to Allah SWT, and let Allah SWT be for you the Giver of Peace (As Salam).

'Oh you who believe! Seek help with patient perseverance and prayer, for God is with those who patiently persevere'. [Chapter 2, Verse 153]

'And whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty). And will provide for him from where he does not expect. And whoever relies upon Allah - then He is sufficient for him. Indeed, Allah will accomplish His purpose. Allah has already set for everything a [decreed] extent. [Chapter 65, Verse 2-3]

Finally I would remind you that:

'Verily, with every difficulty there is relief. Verily, with every difficulty there is relief'. [Chapter 94, Verse 5-6]

The hardship you are facing now is only for a time. It will end and will be replaced with ease. Dont doubt that or lose hope in that. Your step daughter is married now and is an adult. That is one pressure on you gone but you need to take control of your current situation to make sure that it does actually improve instead of add more stress to your life.

I think for your own health it would be better for you to stay away from some of your husbands relatives that are causing you to feel so much negativity. Jealousy is a human emotion but at the same time I think you can recognise that it is poisonous and can harm you. Allah does not ask of you more than you can bare and it is clear from your posts you are exhausted from all the pressure and pretense when you are around them. I know that is hard to say and your in the situation so if it was as easy as that you would have done it by now but I think in your case distance from them would definitely help you to get some peace of mind and mental rest. Maybe compromise and say once a month instead of every weekend. Or just keep yourself busy so you dont have time to socialise with them. Do an activity for yourself or an activity with your children.

I hope you dont take this the wrong way sister but from your posts it seems like your husband has added a lot more stress on you rather than alleviating it by pressuring you to take up your weekends with his family. Be more selfish. Not just for yourself but for your kids as well. Your family has rights on you too. Why should all your time be taken up dealing with your husband's family? It is his responsibility and duty to visit his parents not yours. Your health, your needs and your family's needs are just as important as his. You need to concentrate on your children as well, as you have already said that unlike your husband's step daughter they only have you. Think about what you feel is the right thing to do and do that not what other people have told you is the right thing to do. I think that will also make you feel a lot better by getting rid of some of your guilt by doing what YOU feel is right.

'And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect'. [Chapter the Romans, verse 21]

What is the point of marriage if it causes you to be depressed and suffer? If your husband really appreciates you and what you have together then he needs to stop allowing his family and ex wife to abuse you. Im sorry to be so blunt but if he wants to be their punching bag that's his choice but why should you be put in that position as well.

I dont want to write a long piece and lecture you as I really dont want to come across as patronising towards you. I hope my comments havent caused you any offence. I dont think its the wisest or most considered of responses but it is a reflection of my gut feeling towards your heart wrenching posts. I will remember you in my duas sis.

peacefuloptimist · 13/05/2014 22:37

Blush didnt realise how long that ended up being. Also fruitcake your daughter is just 28. She is very young still. Please dont worry so much, she has plenty of time to recover and move on with her life with your support.

Elusive · 14/05/2014 01:05

Salaam,

I have read through your message fruitcake and am so glad that peaceful has responded with some beautiful verses from the Quran.

In my times of strife i found this dua really helped:

??????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????

RABBE Anni massani'ad-durru wa anta arhammu 'r-rahimin-
Ya Allah I am afflicted and who can be most merciful but you.

It is from surah anbiya verse 83-84 which translate:

"And Ayub, when he cried to his Lord, (saying): Harm has afflicted me, and Thou art the most Merciful of the merciful."

"Therefore We responded to him and took off what harm he had, and We gave him his family and the like of them with them: a mercy from Us and a reminder to the worshippers."

Hope this helps inshallah.

I am feeling that you have a lot of guilt that you are not there in the way you want to be for your kids as your husband's family take up so much of your time. This in turn has made you resent them all. I can see that you have already spoken to your husband about your feelings. Tell your husband that now you must put the same time and effort into your relationship with your kids too. Do you feel that your husband will be supportive of this? He seems to be generous financially, but does he care about your emotional health? You are not wrong in wanting to spend time with your own children. In fact, it is imperative that you do. Your husband has rights upon you, but so do you as his wife. Your children also have rights upon you.

Mashallah, your children seem very supportive of you and you have obviously raised them well. I think when you are happy that you are dedicating some of your time to being with your own children, then you might feel happier spending some time with your in-laws/step-daughter too.

Elusive · 14/05/2014 01:08

Just noticed that i have used the word 'kids' for your grown up children. Sorry - that should have said children Blush my apologies Thanks

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 14/05/2014 05:25

Fruitcake, the bit I picked out of your messages is that this man, your husband, controls your behaviour, dictates who will live with you, lied to you and married you under false pretences, hits you and has hugely disrupted your relationship with your children. I respectfully ask whether/why you still want to remain married to him?
Leaving aside any issues of religion, I would advise any woman in an abusive relationship to take steps to remove the husband from her life.

fruitcake12 · 14/05/2014 11:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 14/05/2014 12:20

If a doctrine tells you that you cannot go to work if your husband forbids it yet your husband is not obliged to support your children there is something wrong with that doctrine no?
I'm going to include the disclaimer that I am not a muslim but honestly, that is so illogical as to be absurd. When two people marry they become a family and that means raising children together, even if they are step. It would be extremely harmful to any children of the mother to be treated as nothing to do with their step father, what would that do to their self esteem?
en.islamtoday.net/node/849
that link is interesting - it suggests that what is required needs to be in accordance with the laws and customs of the society in which they live. It would be like telling the DWP that yes you have married a woman with children but she still needs to claim income support and housing benefit, even though you earn £50000 per year, because those children are not your responsibility. You would be laughed at.

Elusive · 14/05/2014 13:21

Salaam fruitcake.

Unfortunately there are many men who will ignore what islam really says about a husband's/father's role and focus on what the wife/mother should be doing Sad

In a nutshell, once the mother re-marries, then the father should take custody of the child. There are various schools of thought who differ slightly, but the consensus is that a mother's re-marriage puts the child in father's custody - unless the mother is married to someone mahram to the child. In this case, mother still has the bigger right to custody - should she want it.

With regards to your husband, it was short-sighted of him to not discuss the possibility of his daughter living with you. As an outsider to the situation, it seems obvious that a father who wants to have a relationship with his daughter, will want to have his daughter live with him, should the opportunity arise.

With regards to your house, make sure you protect it and your children get a fair share from it.

Your question about refusing to look after a step-child. It is a father's islamic duty to provide. Your ex-husband has done a great injustice to your children by not providing nor contacting his children. Similarly, your DH would have been guilty of a great injustice had he not provided for his daughter nor taken her into his home. Islamically, he could not leave the daughter with the mother, when both mother and daughter want father to take on that responsibility. With in-laws, it is clear cut, wife has no obligation to be serving them. With a child, it is harder to say that a step mother can refuse to play a role of a carer in the step-child's life, especially at age 12. The father is still the main person responsible, but once re-married his wife does become a step-mother and islamically that role demands that she is kind to her step-children and that the children are kind and respectful back. I dont know how a family unit would exist without both husband and wife making an effort to bond/spend time with their respective step-children. I would guess that a mutual effort would have to be made where both husband and wife feel that they are giving and taking in equal measure. Unfortunately, in your case,it seems that you hVe done all the giving.

You are islamically under no obligation to look after your husband's parents. Your step-daughter is married now, you dont need to be freeing up your weekends to entertain her and her husband, you husband should be able to manage that. Do continue maintaining good family ties with her, but also put your own children at the forefront too. You will have to be a bit more selfish now and be there for your own children.

A detailed answer to your question about father not providing for his children: c&p'd from islamqa.com:

Maintenance of children is obligatory upon the father according to scholarly consensus, whether the wife is poor or rich. So she is not obliged to spend on the children if the father is around.

If the children are in the custody of a divorced woman, then their father must support them, and the mother who has custody of a child who is still breastfeeding has the right to ask for payment for nursing the child.

Maintenance of children includes accommodation, food, drink, clothing and education, and everything that the child needs, and is to be based on what is reasonable, paying attention to the husband’s situation, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Let the rich man spend according to his means; and the man whose resources are restricted, let him spend according to what Allaah has given him. Allaah puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him. Allaah will grant after hardship, ease”

[al-Talaaq 65:7]

This varies from one country to another and from one person to another.

If the husband is rich then he must spend according to his wealth, and if he is poor or of moderate means, then he must also spend according to his means. If the parents agree upon a specific amount on money, whether it is great or small, then that is up to them. But in the case of dispute, the one who should decide about that is the qaadi (judge).

With regard to custody – as defined by a number of scholars – it means taking care of the one who has not reached the age of discernment and cannot live independently, and raising him in accordance with his best interests and protecting him from anything that may harm him. Rawdat al-Taalibeen (9/98). What is meant is taking care of the small child and looking after him. So the main issue of custody is taking care of the interests of the child. Hence if the father refuses to undertake this duty towards the child, which includes maintenance, then he is sinning, and forfeits his right to custody. It says in al-Rawdah al-Murbi’: The child should not stay with one who does not protect him and take care of him, because that is contrary to the purpose of custody. Al-Rawd al-Murbi’ (3/251).

Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisi said: Custody is aimed at looking after the child, so it should not be given in a way that will be detrimental to his welfare and his religious commitment. Al-Mughni (8/190).

Ibn al-Qayyim said: If we show precedence to one of the parents, we must pay attention to how he looks after the child. Hence Maalik and al-Layth said: If the mother is not in a safe place or she is not of good character, then the father has the right to take the child from her. Similarly in the well known report from him, Imam Ahmad said that it depends on his ability to take care of the child. If he is careless or unable to do that, or is not of good character, or he is immorall and the mother is different from him, then she undoubtedly has more right to take the daughter. Our Shaykh said: If one of the parents fails to educate the boy and raise him in accordance with Islamic teachings, then he is sinning and has no guardianship (wilaayah) over him. Anyone who does not do his duties as a guardian has no guardianship. He should either be dismissed as the guardian and replaced by someone who will do what is required, or someone else should be appointed with him who will do what is required along with him, because the aim is to obey Allaah and His Messenger according to one’s ability. … If the father marries a woman who does not take care of his daughter, and her mother is better able to take care of her than this co-wife, then custody should definitely be given to the mother. Zaad al-Ma’aad (5/424).

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di said: But if one of them neglects their duties with regard to custody and care of the child, then he forfeits his guardianship and the other should be appointed instead. Al-Fataawa al-Sa’diyyah (p. 535).

Based on this, if the father refuses to spend on his children’s maintenance, he forfeits the right to custody, even if his refusal is aimed at hurting the mother. This indicates that he is not to be trusted to take care of his children’s interests. The mother has the right to ask him in court for maintenance of his children.

I need to charge my tablet. Will answer your other questions once charged inshallah.

Elusive · 14/05/2014 14:22

Ok i am back.

fruitcake, your question about working and school drop off,

If it is something that he was unhappy about, which i feel a bit Shock about then did he offer an alternative? Did he offer to do the school runs and fund her lifestyle and that of her children? After all, the kindness rule is not just limited to the step-mother!

men cant put restrictions in place, if they won't man up to their responsibilities. Angry

To not want a woman to work, nor do school runs and then not provide for her children nor make provisions that all those aspects are seen to, puts the woman in an impossible situation. If these were broken promises, then that is dishonest in itself. So, before we even look at what islam says about the woman working etc, we need to look at what islam says about the husband's responsibilities (and credibility!)

The sheikh was right that the responsibility lies with the biological father, but should have also given an answer about the merits of kind treatment towards step-children! Poor friend probably didnt realise that she was re-marrying to look after his needs, yet all her needs got ignored! I feel very angry on her behalf! Did the sheikh say what she is supposed to do with her kids then? Throw them out of the house and quit her job so that she could serve her husband and so she is fresh and happy, and not tired when doing so! Exactly what does she get in return? Food and shelter, which she was quite capable of providing for herself pre-marriage! Just incredible!

fruitcake12 · 14/05/2014 14:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fruitcake12 · 14/05/2014 14:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Elusive · 14/05/2014 14:47

Sorry about the rant in my last post. Just felt a bit annoyed!

I cant help but feel that the stepdaughter is not the issue, it is more your husband who cant find the balance. You cannot put his family first at the expense of your own children. I understand that your children are adults but I can see that they missed out on a lot. The reward for their patience is with Allah.

Your husband has rights, but not at the expense of the rights of your children. Does he ever facilitate you spending time with your children at all?

peacefuloptimist · 14/05/2014 16:06

Salams

Thanks for your posts Elusive. I really benefited from reading that. It coincides with what I have read that custody matters should be judged on a case by case basis and the primary concern is what is best for the child. In some instances it will be better to live with the father and in some cases the mother. I read an interesting hadith that suggested that the child's preferences should also be considered (when they are old enough) and take precedence over the wants of the parents.

A woman came to the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) and said: “My husband wants to take my son away from me.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to the child: “This is your father and this is your mother, so take the hand of whom you like.” The boy took the hand of his mother and they went together. [Sunan al-Tirmidhî]

It seems amazing that 800-900 years ago muslim scholars were enlightened and astute enough to rule that:

'Custody is aimed at looking after the child, so it should not be given in a way that will be detrimental to his welfare and his religious commitment'.

and

'If one of them (the parents) neglects their duties with regard to custody and care of the child, then he forfeits his guardianship and the other should be appointed instead'.

You wonder why 900 years later some societies still struggle to grasp these basic points Hmm.

I was also very angry about the opinion of that 'shaykh' Hmm. If he cant recognise that yes, ideally the biological father rather than the step father should be financially maintaining his children, but in cases where the biological father is not fulfilling his duties to his children that SOMEONE else has to and if the step father is unwilling to do that, that it is the mother who is going to have to, shows he hasn't the common sense let alone the islamic knowledge to deal with marriage/family disputes. You have to really make sure that you are seeking advice from someone who is qualified to adjudicate in these manners and not just any old person calling themselves an Imam or shaykh.

As for roles and responsibilities of step parents, I think we should reflect on the hadith where the Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

“Verily, Allah has prescribed excellence in all things."

The hadith continues to give an example about how you should strive to excellence when slaughtering an animal for meat ("each of you should sharpen his blade and spare suffering to the animal he is slaughtering” - back to the halal issue again Wink) but I think it can also be applied in this case. If you have made the choice to be a step parent then you should carry that role out, whether male or female, to the best of your ability. That means providing nurture, guidance, love, support and care to your step child as you would to your own child, especially when they are young, impressionable and not yet able to live independently. Its not easy to do that of course and if someone doesnt feel like they could (or want to) play such a role then really they should avoid getting involved with someone who has a child. I can understand fruitcake that the situation you were in was highly charged because of the manipulation of your husband's ex-wife and family but if the situation was reversed and it was the husband not allowing or wanting his wife's child to stay in HIS house Im sure that would be distressing to the mother and most would not support that. Its not always about what is 'your right' or 'his right' sometimes its about what is the best and most decent thing to do.

I totally agree with Elusive's last point that you really need to assert yourself with your husband and achieve some balance. I really disagree that you should go along with everything your husband wants. One of my favourite hadiths is the one where the Prophet Muhammed PBUH said

"Help the oppressed and the oppressor". It was asked, “Oh Messenger of Allah, we help the one being oppressed but how do we help an oppressor?” The Prophet said, “By seizing his hand.”

Do not let your husband and his family take advantage of you. Your husband and step daughter are adults and are perfectly capable of seeing each other without you there as some sort of chaperone. Your in laws do not have any right to expect you to see them every weekend. That is asking for too much. You need to take care of your well being and your children's well being and that means you have to demand the right to have space and time for yourself in the weekends to do what is best and right for you not what he or his family wants. If he isnt happy about that, I think you should go back and read Ehric's point and ask yourself 'why you still want to remain married to him' especially if he has no concern for your mental health and well being and that of your children. I hope for the best for you sis and please dont take anything I wrote as a criticism or judgement of you. I think you have managed to stand strong against a lot of adversity, but dont give up now when things have the potential to get better with your step daughter married and your children grown adults.

Elusive · 14/05/2014 17:10

Agree with peaceful about not giving up sis.

Gonna look at your link now ehric. Smile . Agree that one must take into account the customs and laws of society (the good bits anyway) Grin
In my experience, its not the religious doctrine that is the issue, its more how its interpreted/applied that becomes the issue.