Is the Christian God's love unconditional?

[Woolmark]

Ok, some questions which have been playing on my mind, I am genuinely interested.

Surely his love is on the condition that you are a) a Christian and b) follow his rules?

Also, if God loves everyone as much as he does, why can't he save everyone by simply appearing to them? If I could save my children by doing this then I would in an instant, rather than turning up at the end and destroying the ones who weren't Christian.

hih of course you can comment on Christianity as much as you please, and discussion and debate is a good thing.

But it's frustrating when you and other atheist debaters seem not to be able to conceive of a kind of Christianity which is informed by critical thinking and scholarship, and choose instead to write as if we are all dyed-in-the-wool biblical literalists and inerrantists, and when we point out that there are other ways of being a Christian, say that we should be biblical literalists and inerrantists.

Your comment 'So god communicated his to humans in a way that one needs to be a scholar to access it. Wouldn't that automatically prevent millions from learning enough to understand' is a case in point. I don't know how often I've said that the Bible is a heterogenous, human document -- the word about, rather than written by God. I don't know how many times you've ignored me. I could say something about how Christianity is both very simple and very complicated, and can be grasped in a moment and need years of study. But would you be prepared to engage with that?

I am very glad when atheists come on here. Much better than just talking to posters that are already Christians. Whether I agree with them or not.

and headinhands. Of course you are "qualified".

I personally enjoy and welcome talking to everyone, whatever they know about Christianity, even if they know nothing at all. Especially if they know nothing at all.

capsium. Yes I agree with your reply to me.

Gold Thanks. It can be difficult to find the words to explain such big concepts. I always feel there is more to be said,. Ideally you need to swallow the Bible whole, understand all of it and know exactly where to apply each bit of it to your life. Big feat, I guess that is why we need the Holy Ghost.

As I do need to be writing a case study for my masters (shocking I know that as a Christian I should be allowed to study at this level; must have been the first degree from Oxbridge that let me in cos any ful kno that all Christians are stupid) and so can't take much time here but there is a brilliant book about the Bible by a very well respected scholar, John Barton called 'People of the Book?' (2011 Third Edition SPCK London)
which looks at the authority of the Bible in Christianity. He is a professor at Oxford University (again shocking that standards have slipped so much that they allow Christians into such an august institution) and I've found him really helpful in unpicking what the Bible is and isn't.

So as has been said many times; the Bible is a library, in many voices and genres and carries cultural baggage. Fundamentalists may want to read it literally but that is not the way it is read in academia or the majority of churches.

Your last sentence bothers me greatly thegreen. It is a very sad state of affairs.

niminy and thegreen I believe there is imagery, metaphor and symbolism in life and in our language itself. So the literal versus metaphorical, symbolic, allegorical etc is a moot point.

Your are welcome, btw capsium.

So I just believe the Bible. I might not understand it all, that is all.

So if the bible was written by humans how can you feel confident that the humans got it right? And said anything that god would have liked them to say? You admit yourself it needs careful studying to interpret some of the scriptures to get the real meaning rather than what it says. How do you know that although it was written by men, it was actually about a real god? And by that token how can you disregard the Koran? If we say 'they were writing about the same god' why would god let them think it was a different god for so long? Seems needlessly confusing and bound to cause trouble when they both take a harsh line on other gods?

head I am content for some things to be a mystery.

Ah I get it capsicum, it's like a relative blessing scale according to your country? So someone in the UK will be blessed by, say, the chance to go to a posh restaurant whereas a woman in Uganda will maybe only have 7 of her 9 babies die in infancy? If that's the way god works wouldn't he be miffed by us sending medical supplies to these developing countries? I mean someone might feel blessed when they shouldn't? God might actually not be happy with them and they're feeling all 'god saved my baby by getting him a tetanus immunisation' or something? It occurs to me that he blesses people in a way that makes it look like stuff that's just happening anyway. And is it fair? Maybe the lady in Uganda would like to go to a posh restaurant?

See I'm not and wasn't happy to just say 'I have peace about it'. That never sat well with me. Looking back it makes no sense. If I found out DH used to have a penchant for murdering people I couldn't just think 'well, I'm sure there was a good reason'. It would actually, and quite right too, make me change my opinion of him.

No head just saying our perception of blessing may not be the same as God's. Not everything is about monetary wealth, that is all. Of course we should help where we can. Jesus healed and fed people.

It might not be all about monetary wealth but my god even a little bit extra makes a big difference between life and death for many people, you'd agree with that no? God sees fit to get you a table in a fancy shmancy restaurant but can't even see his way to letting the Uganda woman's kids live beyond a year? That's so unfair. Say you've got two kids, one in Canada whose a millionaire and one in Botswana. You send one a helicopter and one 2p?

headinhands. Some of the questions you ask, you have asked many times before and got lots of answers about.

I realise that you must like debate. But I am surprised that you like to debate the same things, some of them the exact same things, over and over. Your choice of course.

I'm still asking because I still don't get it. I still haven't heard an answer that makes sense. I reckon that what will happen in time is that I'll get fed up with myself and just accept I'm never going to know how I made it 'fit'. There seems to be a few new posters about as ever, and you kip ever ow whose lurking, someone might have the magic bullet. Of course please do ignore my repetitive questions if you want. I did hear that MN might have a 'hide poster' function sometime in the future.

God works through people head. Not everybody wants to do God's will.
Someone has to give the money, the job, be there to help. Plant the crops etc.

People who go against God's will, hinder. For example Multi National Companies genetically modifying grain making it only possibly to grow it with their patented fertilisers etc. Dictators cruelly oppressing nations.

niminypiminy don't take it personally. See in one sense I prefer the modern christian (for want of a better term). I have more respect for the one who will stick to his beliefs, but from where I'm standing the world would be an easier place to live in if all christians were to take this soft, blurry view of religion.

Christians used to kill people like me. Nowadays they explain with wisdom and gravitas how there is no need to obey this rule or that this section of the bible is metaphor. That god is just a need to be one with the universe, that you don't have to do anything much about being a christian as long as you have a relationship with Jesus, and so on.

It's all so new isn't it. Go back 60 years or so and Adam & Eve still existed, eating the fruit of the tree was the cause of all suffering - especially during birth - and god was in the heaven that he made just a few thousand years ago.

Eden is gone - officially never existed. Limbo has been boarded up, and hell finally froze over and is now just a place where you suffer only because you don't get to tell god how wonderful he is all day long. A fate worse than death I'm sure.

But no one chooses to be born in the third world do they? It would be one thing to say that god was completely hands off while we are on earth but to assert that he blesses us only if we happen to have nice people near us, that seems highly unfair.

Born in an affluent country? Great! Here, I've booked a table for you at Alfonso's tonight. Born in Darfur? Aw shucks sorry mate. You'll have to wait until heaven for anything nice.

headinhands. So are you trying to find out why you believed in the first place, but have no intention of ever going there again presumably?
You are wondering how you ever fell for it all?

And you are very angry with yourself for falling for it?

Does it make any difference how I am feeling?

Back I love your modern view of Christians, I am not sure where you would put me! Am I soft and fuzzy and irrelevant or annoying and dangerous! Actually, lots of us would probably fit into a few camps, we are trying to work it out! It is not easy. I don't think God is sending people to nice restaurants or killing other's children. But we as a society are very, very unfair. Actually some Christians are at the forefront of campaigning for rights for all (yes, and others of other faiths and those of no faith). To blame the state of the world on a God you do not believe in seems a bit strange, what do you think is the real reason for the unjustice? And of course you are fully qualified to answer and debate. The fact you are still interested in 'religion' is interesting to me in itself!

head I also think your view of the third world is a bit out of date, of course there are people living below the pverty line all over the pace and there are riches beyond compare in many places where people starve! It is people to blame for this uneven distribution and not geography.

sorry - And of course you are fully qualified to answer and debate. The fact you are still interested in 'religion' is interesting to me in itself! - was directed at head.